Of course, we guide them. We just shouldn’t demand. Or not too much.
DH tried in vain to explain the career issues of D1’s major- it was his field and though he was settled and doing well, he knew what young grads face. But she knew it was her driving academic interest and she loved being a major. Knew it since 10th. I suggested anthro on the side and she loved it. So now she’s in tech. (I knew she’d end up in business of some sort.) For D2, I knew psych would interest her and she was set on something else. She finally had a slot for an extra class, lo and behold, found psych such a great fit, majored in that with something else on the side. Her career start has been in business, too.
I’m not saying I’m an expert or a psychic. But we can talk to them. We know a bit more about what range of classes there are and may have friends who worked in different areas. Despite what anyone thinks about AP classes, kids don’t have exposure to many academic subjects in hs. Mine never had a chance to take psych, anthro, film, art history, philosophy or all sorts of other things in hs.
“When she gets to college, I am encouraging her to explore her interests, but to continue to take math and science unless/until she is ready to make an active decision that that is not the way she wants to go”
I think that’s probably a smart plan for someone who’s exploring STEM as an option. The key for all such guidance is encouragement as opposed to requirement. If the path doesn’t work out as planned, you don’t want to send the student the message that she’s letting you down or wasting your money if she pursues a different interest. I’ve seen this backfire in a number of families.
“I think that’s probably a smart plan for someone who’s exploring STEM as an option. The key for all such guidance is encouragement as opposed to requirement. If the path doesn’t work out as planned, you don’t want to send the student the message that she’s letting you down or wasting your money if she pursues a different interest. I’ve seen this backfire in a number of families.”
I would not consider DD2 deciding to shift out of engineering to be a failure or letting us down in any way. In the long run, I think that is probably likely that she will ultimately chose something else, but you never know. In the meantime, I think she will benefit from continuing down that path while she explores her options. I am encouraging her to further explore her interest in engineering and enrolled her in a 2 engineering summer week camp (that she found and asked to attend) at Notre Dame to explore that interest.
She also came to me this morning, after looking at the chart that I attached at the beginning of this thread, and asked me to explain what a finance person does, so I was happy that at least it prompted her to ask about different careers that she doesn’t know much about.
Regardless of the way the conversation has gone on this thread, the truth is that I am a bit concerned that a harder major in engineering may be difficult for her, but she is interested in it so I am supporting her. She is an above average student who is fairly good at math, and science. She has gets a lot of B’s, but she keeps requesting the most rigorous courses because she says that she learns more getting a B in an AP or Honors class than by getting an easy A in a regular class. This may hurt her college admissions chances a bit for schools that only consider her uwgpa and do not adjust for rigor, but I do think that she is benefitting from learning more. Her uwgpa is about 3.5 - 3.6, weighted is about 4.25, and her last ACT practice was a 30 with a 31 on Math. She takes her first real ACT exam next weekend. She is in honors precalculus right now and is still deciding between AB and BC calculus for next year.
Finally, while trying to support her through his process, I am also aware that parents, usually without realizing it, are often more cautious about daughters who are interested in things like engineering or math, so I am also challenging myself on that front.
At some point though, won’t your DD still have to go through the process of choosing a school? Once you’ve identified a major (or majors), she’ll still need to find schools that offer those choices, that are affordable for your family, and that meet other criteria that are important to her.
I know in our case, potential majors were certainly an issue, but not something I would have posted on a public message board about. We had the information needed to figure out those issues. Asking where there’s a good mid-sized school near a city in a certain part of the country with a strong core curriculum is something I’m much more likely to ask here at CC.
That late in a game, parents’ involvement in choosing major may creat frictions. The process is so subtle, it would take several years to make it more or less kid’s decision vs parents’s decision.
The “income” approach may also backfire as it is somehing that is kind of “foreign” to a HS junior. On the other hand, if “income’ approach is used, there is a good chance that kid may end up in a field that she would hate with all her heart (despite of complete academic success and job placement). And that has happened to me personally. I end up going back to school in my mid 30s (having family) and enter a field that I always wanter to be. My original pursuit was in fact influenced by my father, who decided that his succssful career is enough to insure my own success.
Well, to avoid frictions, I started talking to my D. back in middle school when she expressed her desire to be a Marine Bio. Since I knew where her desire is coming from, it was not that hard to pursue her to change her mind. However, it took me several years to do so, I just did not want to make her feel “pushed”. I never used “income” approach, but"job security” approach, using my own example of changing my employers a lot because of job insecurity inherent in ANY field, but much less so in medicine Well, D’s love of Bio was a spring board though, if she hated Bio, I would have never tried to talk to her about it. But by the time she took Bio in HS, I had many conversations about insecurity of her original Marine Bio choice, preparing ground so to speak.
In reagard to what UG to choose, in case of STEM major (and D. was planning to pursue a Bio related one), the name of the UG is irrelevant to the future professional success. One may attend Ivy for personal preferences, but rely on the fact that it will make any difference in the career, is not correct in most cases. It will ALL depend on the student and not institution. I am personally familiar with the engineering, CS and medicine (if Med. School is in plan).
@inigoMontoya “I know in our case, potential majors were certainly an issue, but not something I would have posted on a public message board about.”
Inigo Montoya? Inconceivable! Sorry, I could not resist.
Well, I want to do the best I can to support DD2 in this process, and it is a much different situation than DD1’s college process. I know that there are a lot of bright and experienced parents on this board, so it seemed worthwhile to get some feedback and see whether there is anything important that I am missing in my thought process, since I don’t know what it is that I don’t know.
Nothing wrong with that. Just noting that while you see more posts about what school is a good fit instead of what major is a good fit, that may be more related to how people approach those questions. Seeing more posts about what schools to look at instead of what majors to look at doesn’t mean families only look at schools at the expense of majors, but that school choice is a question that better lends itself to asking publicly (once you’ve identified criteria such as size, location, cost, majors, and other relevant items). I see potential majors as a question where you really need to know the individual to be able to give advice.
And many time the soul-searching for majors ends up with a kid still having no idea what they want to do for the rest of their lives. I’m almost 50 and have changed careers several times and still don’t know what I want to do when I grow up…
I think being able to pursue a field that is likely to be low paying is a luxury that most kids can’t really afford. And I have told all 3 of my kids, you can always pursue a passion, but it dosen’t have to be in college nor do you need to try for a career in it.
DD19 is taking PTA, isn’t a passion for her, but I know she could do it. She wasn’t thrilled about it, but funds were limited, and this would be something she could accomplish if 2 years, with manageable debt, and support herself. I told her many people change careers in their lifetimes, so she could always pursue something else if she really wanted to. She is doing very well in the program, and is happy she has a direction.
DS17 is going to study computer engineering. He has the chops for it, and I think he can certainly find employement with that major. DS didn’t want to go to a large school, but so far he will be going to Univ of Alabama due to the scholarship. It’s all about the money and affordabililty.
DD14 is a gifted writer. Fine, but you can write and also plan for a career where you will likely find employment with decent pay. So I am already encouraging her to look at the various engineering fields, and not just to dismiss them out of hand, because she likes to write.
And I do consider liberal art majors risky endeavors when finances are extremely limitied.
I did something similar to @miamidap, when my daughter was little we played what don’t you want to be when you grow up. It was fun - oops - two left feet guess you won’t be a dancer, hates the site of blood - no doctor for you, not very tall - no NBA for you, etc. She entered college undeclared and within her first year picked her major. The school helped by having a program where you talk to people in various majors, take aptitude tests, etc. She is very happy with what she picked and really has a passion for it. My advice is to let an undecided student enter college that way, but they should actively pursue their interests by taking a variety of classes, talking to students and professors in different fields, etc.
DD19 was NOT able to pick a variety of classes at Penn State, branch campus. Everything she tried to take they told her it was reserved for for XXX majors. That is not what was intimated at orientation, so just another huge gripe I have with the Penn State machine.
I agree with post #48. As a suggestion, while some classes may not be availble outside of major, there is no reason for not declaring combo of major(s)/minor(s). In fact, while my D. has decided 100% on her major, she also wanted to puruse her personal interests while in UG, for the sake of deeper education and nothing else and so did many pre-meds around her. D. had 2 minors, another pre-med graudated with triple major and so forth. They were NOT related to their main major at all, like Music, Languages, art,…etc. Also, if one is in Honors college at the state schools, then they have a priority registration, so more is open to these students and they take full advantage of it.
" As a suggestion, while some classes may not be availble outside of major, there is no reason for not declaring combo of major(s)/minor(s). "
Even after declaring a major, she still couldn’t pursue anything outside her major. She was in a tract, and she had to stick with the approved courses. And speaking with an advisor about it, did not make a difference.
“At some point though, won’t your DD still have to go through the process of choosing a school? Once you’ve identified a major (or majors), she’ll still need to find schools that offer those choices, that are affordable for your family, and that meet other criteria that are important to her.”
Yes she will. We have begun discussing that in parallel with the major discussion.
She has visited two colleges that are driving distance (Wisconsin and Illinois).
We are taking her to visit several others on spring break (Lehigh, Drexel, Haverford, Boston University, and Tufts).
She would probably not be admitted to Tufts with her grades, but she is a decent swimmer, and her 100 and 200 freestyle times may make her viable, if she can improve just a one or two seconds by next fall. I know that Haverford does not have engineering or swimming, but it is close to Drexel, so we are planning to visit anyway. You never know, perhaps she will change her mind.
If she decides to swim, (it currently depends on what day you ask her) then Vassar, Carelton, and Middlebury could also be possible. Based on last year’s results, her current times she would be their fastest 200 and 100 freestyler at Vassar, and Carelton and second fastest at Middlebury.
It’s a good conversation-on this thread and IRL. And she has time between now and when she submits her first app. I liked the point that not all majors can be picked up midway through college. I think you’re doing this right, Much2learn. Best wishes.
That’s how I counseled my D. She does have a few ideas about what she’d like to do and one is structured to the point of being a 6 year program to a very specific degree for a very specific occupation. Thing is, the first 2 or so years of this program are almost exactly the same as they would be for several other majors she is considering, and there is space for electives/gen eds as well, to explore other possibilities.
What she decided was not to apply to any college where switching majors would be very difficult - where it involved applying to transfer to another college within the U to do so, for example.
I did help her think this through because I wanted to be sure she understood how this works and to keep her options maximized, but she will make her own major/college choice. I see it as making sure she has the information to make her own considered decisions.
FWIW she’s also applied to some schools where the first choice career (not the program mentioned above) requires a master’s and there are many UG options to prepare for it.
“Even after declaring a major, she still couldn’t pursue anything outside her major.”
-Yes, that is why she should have declared COMBO of major(s)/minor(s). And the helping aspect here is to e in Honors with the priority registration. Many has done it around my D. and not because they did not know, they just simply wanted to pusue additional personal interests to enrich their lives.
A school like Vassar or Amherst or Hamilton, one that does not have many distribution requirements, may be a good choice for someone who is not sure of their major. It is easier to do a double major at these schools. S1 was a double major at Vassar and continued on to get his masters in engineering at a top engineering school. Vassar science and math prepared him well, So you don’t have to decide on a career now, the stronger LAC’s will prepare you well for graduate work in another field if you decide late. On your other topic, S2 really liked the swim programs at Tufts, Hamilton and Vassar. He chose Vassar and the swim team has been a fantastic experience for him with a really great group of swimmers - I hope you can visit Vassar and Hamilton- maybe swing by Vassar and/or Hamilton on the way from Lehigh to Tufts on your spring tour.
@InigoMontoya, at some schools, switching in to certain popular majors after HS is really tough or near impossible. Also taking classes in a major if you are not that major. This is more common at state schools.
Yes, switching to certain majors can be difficult depending on the school and the major, but for the most part not as challenging as changing schools, where acceptance as a transfer can be more difficult than as a freshman, credits may or may not transfer, and scholarship money may be lost in the process. That was the basis of my comment - that no matter how good your plan is, it’s still common for kids to switch majors, so while it’s important to consider choice of major, you can’t ignore the importance of trying to find the right school as well. And picking the right school might mean selecting one where it is easier to change majors and take classes outside your major.
My daughter found her major because she knew she wanted to do something in music, but she didn’t want to do education and she is a bit risk averse about the vicissitudes of having a career as a performer - so she found music therapy. She asked me to look into which colleges offered that major, and she decided from there (I am not an engineer, but I also have a spreadsheet with all kinds of data that she reviewed).
Since she decided she only wanted to apply to schools that could be driven to in a day (the farthest two come in at about 9 hours) we visited all of them, and she seems to be leaning towards the two conservatory schools on her list. At every school, she asked how easy or difficult it was to change to different major - what’s interesting is that between our junior year tours and her senior year auditions, the answer to that question has changed. The schools that said it was difficult seem to have moved to making it easier to change course. The conservatories seem focused on starting everyone off with the same foundational courses, although specialization is starting in the second semester in most cases.
There’s a lot to consider and if there’s one thing I’m sure of, there’s not one right way to proceed.
