<p>Would now be a good time to repost this relevant article, speaking of FSU? :D</p>
<p><a href="http://www.theonion.com/content/node/52822%5B/url%5D">http://www.theonion.com/content/node/52822</a></p>
<p>Opie,</p>
<p>I am talking about HS participation, and I was quoting 340K when it was really 240K, which was from 2001, the lastest I could find. My mistake. Here are the actual figures from NFHS for wrestling as of 2005-6:</p>
<p>In 2005-06, there were 9,744 boys wrestling teams in the nation, an increase in 182 teams from the previous year (a 1.9 percent increase).</p>
<p>Wrestling remained the No. 6 most popular boys sport in terms of number of participants and the No. 8 most popular sport in terms of number of teams.</p>
<p>Girls wrestling also increased in both major categories.</p>
<p>The number of girl wrestlers in high schools in 2005-06 grew to 4,975 athletes, an increase of 641 wrestlers from the previous year (a 14.8 percent increase)</p>
<p>The number of teams with girl wrestlers in 2005-06 was 1,081 teams,
an increase of 140 teams (a 14.9 percent increase).</p>
<p>When combining the number of boys and girls involved in wrestling in 2005-06, the total number grew to 256,509, which increased 9,166 athletes for the year. This amounts to a 3.7 percent increase in total wrestlers for the year.</p>
<p>The total boys in soccer nationwide was 358,935. I am not sure how you get to 600,000 in your state, unless you count youth. In that case wrestling also increases dramatically. There are 20 boys and one girl on our HS team, but about 125 in the district's program. Some local schools have over 200 in their youth programs.</p>
<p>curmudgeon, I respect you and agree it is a lot more expensive per athlete, especially football, but there are scholarships for cheering and they actually practice almost all year 'round since they don't fall under NCAA. They should count, and the guys count as girls, because that's what they do with the girls in boys sports</p>
<p>"These boys are having a popular sport taken away for PC reasons."
No, this is not true. It's just convienent to imply that. </p>
<p>"Many are having their sport abruptly shut down while they are already in the college! Imagine if you kid's pre-med program were shut down tomorrow."</p>
<p>Yes, imagine no more doctors:) I'd guess he'd switch to something else his bio/chem major/minor would work into to. :) or find a sport that works for him and his schedule.</p>
<p>Please don't even begin to try to talk about stuff going away. My biggest talk with my kids is about career choices that will disappear in America by the time they reach middle age. Any job that can be done in the far east without direct interaction is at risk in 20 years. </p>
<p>"Would your kid want to transfer? Probably not, but he might be forced to do so. (Or you could just console him by suggesting that he is a poet at heart and should change majors.)"</p>
<p>Or we'd move onto something else. Imagine only being able to enjoy vanilla ice cream, what a shame. </p>
<p>"We are not talking about an obscure, expensive activity. Lots of activities help gain entrance to college."
Absolutely, there's others. Colleges look for well rounded with grades and activities including sports. </p>
<p>"It's not all based on grades & never has been. Sports is a great one for demonstrating leadership, dedication, and the ability to function on a team. "</p>
<p>NO arguement about the qualities of sport, your preaching to the chior. The first part of your statement is BS though. Unless you can run a 4.3 40 and average 7 yards a carry. :) </p>
<p>Both kids NMF. I am well aware how it works. Also two of my brothers and myself recieved money to play sports in college, so I am well aware of how that works too. We are well aware of atheletic scholarships. </p>
<p>"That's why colleges like to admit athletes. Your kids will need those qualities if they want to get through med school." </p>
<p>So if my kid's a long stick middie, he has a better chance to go to Dartmouth med school than his MCAP score? :) interesting. </p>
<p>I'm playing with ya. :) Can't help it. Look, I was trying to console a dad complaining about his son not getting to play his favorite sport at his college. My advice was to find another sport to enjoy. Is that REALLY bad advice? </p>
<p>Look I'm old now near 50, ugly and kinda beat up. I'm 6'7" and unfortunately currently 320 lbs. I've played football, baseball,basketball,soccer and rugby competitively.My best weight was 245ibs cause I could move quickly with power. I love sports, I really do. However, if somebody takes something away sport wise, I'd find another one to do. Except maybe golf. :) </p>
<p>You and the dad are fighting a sillly arguement here with me. I've been around the block.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I'm 6'7" and unfortunately currently 320 lbs.
[/quote]
Aunt Bea's cooking?</p>
<p>"I am talking about HS participation"</p>
<p>OK the sport I mentioned soccer doesn't use HS play to recruit scholarship atheletes. It's more like ABC hoops. I ballparked our state rec numbers. </p>
<p>Look I understand your point. Any sport taken away hurts somebody. Any sport not added to the mix, hurts somebody. </p>
<p>However, until we become a society that wants to pay taxes to allow sports to thrive in the states, an administrative bean counter makes the decisions.
T9 just allowed them to throw their hands up and cry "I'm handcuffed here by this law." When in reality, they aren't. It's just easier to take away than to enhance. </p>
<p>My whole point to you was entirely different than this numbers crunching stuff you seem to want to hash over. No problem, I BELIEVE YOU AND YOUR NUMBERS FOR WRESTLING. However, I'm not the guy to convience.</p>
<p>I was just trying as a dad whose been there, waking up and realizing real soccer's over for my kid, to give you an option. </p>
<p>It wasn't to p is you off, it was a friendly attempt to point out your kid's still here and alive, and what ever he does I'm sure you'll be proud of him. Heck you might even get to enjoy college sports with him. We dominated the beer pong league for dad's weekend. :) Now there's a true college sport. We dominated for the last few years, stuff of legend, until the kid with the alcoholic dad stepped up last year. ;) </p>
<p>Honestly, I was never attempting to attack you or the sport you believe in, it was pointing out you've got a kid who can do anything he wants, so sit back and enjoy it. OK :) or join in. Whatever floats your boat.</p>
<p>"Aunt Bea's cooking?"</p>
<p>:) Actually it was the two pictures of beer, hamberger basket after every game that caught up with me in my late 30's. I'm an Irishman and beer and fried potatoes...man that's heaven. :) Now I know why all those skinny guys drank pictures of water first. </p>
<p>When you get old, once you gain it, it becomes hard to give it back. I've been trying for awhile. :)</p>
<p>Oh, Opie I wasn't being critical. I was looking for recipes.;) At 6'3" 300 I'm just one good pizza buffet and a dozen moonpies behind you. Call me before you come to Texas . We need to run some computer models and devise a plan to keep the Earth from going out of its rotation. Forget global warming . This could kill us all. ;)</p>
<p>Opie, I disagree with virtually every point you are trying to make. Especially your contention that the drive to shut down men's programs isn't fueled by PC motives. </p>
<p>You are an amazingly mellow man if you could just shrug off the shutting down of your kids' career preparation paths. I wonder if your kids will be so nonchalant when opportunities are yanked out from underneath them.</p>
<p>You also believe that my statement regarding the value of sports successes is "BS." I don't think so. I'm pretty sure that the accomplishments of the quarterback of a state championship football team will be viewed more favorably than the ten minute mile of the slow kid on a no-cut cross country team. Even if neither will see a dime nor have a shot at walking-on.</p>
<p>
[quote]
So if my kid's a long stick middie, he has a better chance to go to Dartmouth med school than his MCAP score? interesting.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Maybe I'm getting tired, but I'm not following your meaning here. </p>
<p>If you are nearing 50, you must realize that college sports have changed a bit since your day. Unless you are Bo Jackson (or Jeff Smardzija) it's not likely that you can switch from sport to sport and make a competitive program.</p>
<p>fight the good fight stickershock.</p>
<p>Ummm, NJres,</p>
<p>I think they're talking about Fresno State University or the Former Soviet Union or someplace just inside of Bergen County, NJ.</p>
<p>Certainly not Florida State University, about which The Onion has selected for special attention. </p>
<p>What is 'Happiness' to a Floridian?
Answer: A New Yorker heading north on I-95, out of Florida, with a New Jersey tourist under each arm. </p>
<p>Now that's funny!:)</p>
<p>Ok you guys who think that big time college sports has gotten out of hand, did you read this one...</p>
<p>Looks like Uncle Sam wants some money from the big Football programs because they make too much money?</p>
<p>I guess I find it interesting that this thread only seems to have concern for MEN's sports being cut - under the guise of T9 - what about the women's programs that have been cut - what is bad for goose is also bad for the gander.</p>
<p>Some sports programs that have been cut - have actually been successful in being reinstated - the battle has been won at times - takes effort - but it can happen.</p>
<p>So not all the woe-is-me should be going out to the guys here - women suffer the consequences as well.</p>
<p>Looks like a politician looking to make a little news. Big whup. If he wants to make a million a year let him try his hand at coaching bigtime football.</p>
<p>"Call me before you come to Texas . We need to run some computer models and devise a plan to keep the Earth from going out of its rotation. Forget global warming . This could kill us all. "</p>
<p>Yea, it's bad..:) I had to let the rest of my family and a couple other people ride the elevator up to the rooftop resturant we were going to eat at because I would have made it over the lbs capacity limit. Took the stairs (five flights) and made it up.. then had beer, burgers and fries.sigh. Travel kills the diet. </p>
<p>No thoughts you were critical of me at all. I did this to myself. When I was young I had such trouble holding weight on my frame with a high burning metabolism that I ate constantly. Around 30 the metabolism changed and slowed, eating habits didn't. Now I'm a offensive lineman in an old body. :) like that does me good at close to 50.</p>
<p>"Opie, I disagree with virtually every point you are trying to make. Especially your contention that the drive to shut down men's programs isn't fueled by PC motives. "</p>
<p>Why is giving women the same opportunity as men PC? Women make up the majority of college students these days, shouldn't they have opportunities that are at least as close as men's? While I respect your right to disagree with T9, I fail to see why my pov is given a implied "bad label" of Politically Correct? Am I PC because I disagree with how T9 is used by many programs as a out for non revenue producing sports? </p>
<p>You claim these male nonrevenue sports are being dropped because of women. I'm claiming they are being dropped because an opportune momment was created when T9 was introduced. Moving non revenue sports into club sport or intermural status saves money, in coaching salaries and travel costs.
In many cases, it's an accounting move, just business rather than PC. </p>
<p>Now do you understand where I am coming from on T9? T9 offered ways to allow for programs to exist in harmony, it would have just cost money to do so. Some colleges did go that route. </p>
<p>"You are an amazingly mellow man if you could just shrug off the shutting down of your kids' career preparation paths. I wonder if your kids will be so nonchalant when opportunities are yanked out from underneath them."</p>
<p>I am mellow because with my size rage is waay too scary. As for my kids, they know if they're smart, do well and work hard, they won't go hungry. They have been taught flexibility and to look ahead. Mainly because let's say your prediction pans out... after the tears and anger.. then what? </p>
<p>Ya still gotta eat, pay the bills and what not. Never spend more than you make, never buy what you don't really need, save your money, live reasonably, with little debt and don't worry about what other people have. </p>
<p>"You also believe that my statement regarding the value of sports successes is "BS." I don't think so. I'm pretty sure that the accomplishments of the quarterback of a state championship football team will be viewed more favorably than the ten minute mile of the slow kid on a no-cut cross country team."</p>
<p>It's going to depend on who reads the application doesn't it? :) What if the application reader is female who liked to run cross country? Or a guy who hated football players for how they treated him? </p>
<p>One time, I was in an emergency room getting 47 stiches to reattach my lower lip to my mouth. I forgot my mouthpiece in a rugby match. Knocked a guy out with my chin. As the doctor sewed me up the pain killers wore off after the 10th stich or so.. All that time he complained about how the rugby players treated him in college. At the 20th stich, I told him I could feel the stiches and they hurt..I got back "whatsa matter aren't you tough enough?"
Now there's some good emergency room banter. :) He split as soon as he finished and before I could remove the hood to get a look. </p>
<p>So realize not every highlight in someone's live is reviewed favorably by someone else. </p>
<p>"Quote:
So if my kid's a long stick middie, he has a better chance to go to Dartmouth med school than his MCAP score? interesting. </p>
<p>Maybe I'm getting tired, but I'm not following your meaning here. "</p>
<p>I am implying that you're placing too much emphasis on sports on the resume. </p>
<p>"If you are nearing 50, you must realize that college sports have changed a bit since your day. Unless you are Bo Jackson (or Jeff Smardzija) it's not likely that you can switch from sport to sport and make a competitive program."</p>
<p>Is sport only important if it's a "competitive" program? What about being happy in playing? When I decided to leave college basketball because it no longer made me happy to play and took up rugby because it made me happy, did it become a lesser experience? </p>
<p>At best I was a D2 level Bball player, with rugby I had an outside shot to play for my country, till knee injuries forced retirement from the game. Rugby allowed me to visit and play in other countries and experience cultures outside my own. How did I lose? </p>
<p>As I said, I love sports, I do. But when one door closes, another opens. Rather than complain, walk through the door and have fun. Learn something new, grow and have a good time.</p>
<p>Opie, I feel like Richard Dawson -- "And the survey says....." The interest surveys show that women are not clamoring for interscholastic sports. Many colleges have reported having trouble filling the rosters of the women's teams, even in pretty popular sports like soccer. I believe in giving women what they want, whether it is more sports or more services of another nature. Colleges should be able to find out what that is and fill their needs. They already have more women represented in tons of activities, and nobody has a problem with that. </p>
<p>Posters keep coming on and giving examples of how their daughters could not imagine living without sports. Data point of one. I've got one of those female jocks at home, too. But data show that she is not the norm, or will likely choose to fill her athletic needs with non competitive activites as college approaches. Choose is the operative word in that sentence.</p>
<p>Sorry about your ER experience. I guess that doc forgot the part about "First do no harm." I hope he didn't purposely leave a nasty scar!</p>
<p>I'm also big on being flexible. But the situation of dad's kid facing cuts for no good reason, simply because wrestling is a scapegoat for Title IX inflexibility, is grossly unfair. I think the discussion is about competitive sports, not just sports that you love. If my son wants to shoot hoops & the driveway has cars in it, I just tell him to go toss a football or kick a soccer ball or ride his bike. He'll live. He loves them all. But that is very different from passionately working at a sport that you were led to believe could help you gain admission to or $ for college, or to be on a college team, and suddenly have it shut down to make room for a women's team that the women don't want! If I had any illusions about my son winning a Div1 scholarship, I'd probably be forbidding all that cross-training anyway, and getting him a personal trainer. Of well, maybe when he turns 11.</p>
<p>I really don't place too much emphasis on sports. In the case of dad's son, it's his passion. His love. If Title IX were taking away male spots in orchestras and dad's son was a musician losing his shot, the argument still applies. (Look how professional orchestras have changed. Men are getting fewer spots because tryouts are now held with the musician behind a curtain. Nobody knows if it's a he/she/black/white/whatever. Now that's what I call fair!)</p>
<p>Your grandmother could probably run a ten minute mile. I doubt that would impress the hypothetical admissions rep. If anything, it would scream "resume padding." I guess I have more faith in their objectivity. (And as a female who ran track, I would easily give the nod to the quarterback.) After all, if the rep had lost out to the class brain in the 3rd grade spelling bee, he might carry a deep-seated grudge and put the kabosh on the NMFs and vals, too. But I doubt it.</p>
<p>
[quote]
If Title IX were taking away male spots in orchestras and dad's son was a musician losing his shot, the argument still applies. (Look how professional orchestras have changed. Men are getting fewer spots because tryouts are now held with the musician behind a curtain. Nobody knows if it's a he/she/black/white/whatever. Now that's what I call fair!)
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Sorry to burst your bubble, but my brother has made his living as a professional string bass player for more than 25 years and has been on both sides of the curtain (auditioning and being on the selection committee). As far as his instrument is concerned (and in his opinion all string instruments), he and most other seasoned professionals in a region can identify most local musicians playing the instrument on the other side of the curtain by auditory queues such as instrument sound (no 2 basses sound exactly alike), bowing technique and often their audition solo piece. And unfortunately, he sees many political decisions made where certain committee members insist upon their favorite players (usually their own students) whom they can easily identify.</p>
<p>The curtain may portend to take the sexism out of musical auditions, but my data point of one would argue otherwise.</p>
<p>And unfortunately as much as we put athletic surveys out there, there will always be politics in the design and implementation of those too. There is no substitute for honorable people.</p>
<p>Politicians are reminding the taxpayers that we are subsidizing these expensive athletic empires:</p>
<p>
[quote]
WASHINGTON -- An influential member of Congress is questioning whether the NCAA Division I empire, with its multimillion-dollar television contracts and million-dollar coaches, deserves its tax-exempt status.</p>
<p>"From the standpoint of a federal taxpayer, why should the federal government subsidize the athletic activities of educational institutions when that subsidy is being used to help pay for escalating coaches' salaries, costly chartered travel and state-of-the-art athletic facilities?" asked Rep. Bill Thomas, R-Calif., chairman of the tax-writing House Ways and Means Committee.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Would the country be better off if college athletics were organized on a more modest scale, and the resources diverted elsewhere? </p>
<p>The article mentions that there are division I basketball programs that cost $600K per player.</p>
<p>With that distorted basis for comparison, I can understand why wrestling seems "cheap" by comparison at $10K per player. </p>
<p>I feel like the boy pointing at the emperor to say he has no clothes.</p>
<p>Whatever the benefits of taxpayer-subsidized NCAA Division I programs (whether basketball or wrestling), in a country in which 45 million people don't have medical insurance coverage, Division I sports are way below a lot of other things on this taxpayer's list of social priorities!</p>
<p>But goaliedad, how could the judges identify the musician unless he or she was a known quantity? You'd have to know the person's work before you'd be able to pick apart their style. The process is fair if neutral judges are in place. Of course if you "know" who the man behind the curtain is, the curtain's purpose is defeated.</p>
<p>My d is a 15 year old violinist & she can identify other violinists by sound, too. She can tell if one is playing the other's violin, as well. She can tell if a live artist is playing the same violin he used in a recording. I don't have such a fine-tuned ear. But if she were to listen to two unknown musicians behind a curtain, she could not tell their race or gender from their playing.</p>
<p>wisteria: Here's what Notre Dame did with their football revenue:</p>
<p><a href="http://science.nd.edu/jordan/%5B/url%5D">http://science.nd.edu/jordan/</a></p>
<p>"Notre Dame now has the most innovative science and teaching facility of any university in the nation.</p>
<p>With our new $70 million Jordan Hall of Science, we are preparing the next generation of leaders in science and technology. Ready to impact the future of research, Notre Dame's premier science education helps students to "dream big" and to make a difference in the world."</p>
<p>I'm only familiar with ND because I'm a huge fan. I'm sure other programs pump sports $$$ back into the school in ways that academically benefit the entire student body.</p>