@Wje9164be not true. I went to an extremely un-competitive school and my UW GPA was a 3.89. Going to Brown in the fall. Upward trend tho. Context and story matters.
@Wje9164be - ivy’s evaluate sats and gpa by ethnicity, gender, family context and race, not commenting on whether that’s right or wrong, that’s just the way they do it. It’s possible the ECs were scattered in that they didn’t show a singular passion, and as you said, the essays.
It’s crystal clear from profile info from Princeton, Brown and Stanford that a perfect gpa yields no magic. Of course, essays count. Problem is more that many kids don’t realize what they’re meant to show.
ECs can show a lot about a kid. Or not. Just being interesting or unusual isn’t it. Again, this isn’t simply about being top dawg at your one hs or what your hs peers think is special. They’ve got thousands more good apps than seats and can afford to cherry pick the kids who show what those adcoms want to see, reflect the attributes, as well as taking on challenges. It’s not all about stats, not all about titles, and not all about “passion.”
for the five ivies that have ED, it’s pretty straightforward, do your best, apply ED - these colleges cannot take the yield hit that HYP can. HYP is of course a lot trickier without a hook, as are the other ivies RD.
Good for you latinvibes. I don’t think you can extrapolate from your situation. Where you go to high school does matter. Take a look at the school profile for the best public and private high school in your area and look at what colleges students matriculated to then compare this to your high school. My father was a public HS teacher and I have always wondered why someone would live in an expensive area with high property taxes would pay for private high school. There are probably many reasons but having better chances of getting into a top college is certainly one of them
^^ Not to mention that @latinvibes is hooked (the importance of which many people talk about upthread) according to one of her posts:
Regarding holistic admissions: There are a variety of reasons that schools would evaluate applications holistically, and while I’m not going to be naive or simplistic and say that schools don’t sometimes have ulterior motives, I think it’s generally a positive (as in fairer to applicants and more beneficial to society). Looking just at numbers like GPAs and test scores may seem more objective, but it can be problematic (e.g., how do you compare GPAs between high schools, and there is plenty of evidence that standardized tests are not completely fair or accurate).
This is true. But by the same token, you can’t extrapolate from a few anecdotes about people not getting into certain top schools. Often someone can post a short summary of the stats/qualifications, but it might leave out some details that were very significant in the evaluation of the application.
And no disrespect intended, but looking at the stats you posted earlier for your child, I’m not surprised they didn’t get into any Ivies. There’s nothing there that makes them stand out. And that’s what you need to get into the top schools, because they’ll already have so many applicants with near-perfect GPAs and test scores.
My point here is that people need to be careful with their “takeaway” as to what matters. Yes, I think essays do really count, but it’s more than just that.
My son applied to 14 colleges (not counting in-state). When it came to writing the college application essays, he began with his top choice colleges, and by the time he came around to writing for his secondary choice colleges, he lost much steam and interest. Writing these college essays while dealing with his brutal schedule was most stressful, and he simply didn’t care much after he was done writing and rewriting essays multiple times for his primary choice colleges. Interestingly, when the college results started coming in, we couldn’t help noticing the remarkable difference in results among those top choice colleges, for which he took extra time and care in writing essays, and the secondary choices. He got into 3 Ivys while rejected or waitlisted by those colleges that he thought was his easy matches. There’s no way to know for sure, but it seemed to me that someone obviously did pay close attention to my son’s essays. So, yes, essays are critical aspect of the holistic admissions process.
Having said that, though, I do not believe that essays themselves are given too much weight in the overall admissions process. Sure, my son took greater care in writing those essays for 3 Ivys that admitted him, but I personally didn’t think those essays were outstanding by any measure. I think what stood him out was his intended major and his outstanding accomplishments in that field to back it up. My point is that essays themselves do carry a certain weight, but in light of certain talents that the college wants, essays don’t play as big a role. If a college is looking at a heavily recruited athlete, for instance, I doubt that they’re going to nit pick the candidate’s essays. Essays probably play a bigger role when lacking outstanding features in the otherwise well qualified application, though.
In my opinion, while there are many different paths to the Ivy League and other elite schools, the easiest path is having an outstanding talent and accomplishments to go with it, while being within the quantitative “range” with SAT, ACT and GPA. Unfortunately, what’s “easiest” can also be the hardest to come by.
@m139pl @parsoc my son (Princeton class of 2020) is an all-rounder too. White, middle-class STEM. His ECs were unique and solid, but not world-class. His essays were very good at conveying a cohesive narrative that probably made him more memorable than the other candidates.
He is doing well at Princeton, but as a generalist (who is good at everything), he is finding in each of his classes there are peers who are experts at the subject. It has been an interesting learning experience for him.
I’d rather go to a community college than an ivy.
“I do not believe that essays themselves are given too much weight in the overall admissions process.” Not sure why the importance of essays continues to be doubted. Or how you got this notion. Granted, some colleges are more oriented to admit by stats. But essays are a glimpse into more than stats and an EC list can convey. They show the thinking (including what a kid writes about) and can/should show the attributes they like.
“His essays were very good at conveying a cohesive narrative that probably made him more memorable than the other candidates.” Yes. The cohesive narrative is good. Memorable isn’t necessarily about odd or unusual (or your hard luck details.) It can be how you express a lesson learned, a new awareness or action, likability. Again, that requires some clear thinking about the purpose of the CA essay and supp questions.
@lookingforward - Apparently, you only selectively read what you want to read instead of the whole message. I clearly stated: “So, yes, essays are critical aspect of the holistic admissions process,” yet you quickly jump to the conclusion, “Not sure why the importance of essays continues to be doubted.” ???
Let me repeat, essays are critical aspect of the holistic admissions process. But there are other factors in the holistic admissions that could override the weight placed on essays. No Ivy schools are going to nitpick the quality of the essays turned in by highly recruited athletes or internationally well-known concert artists.
Yes, it’s very difficult to extrapolate much about the admissions process from a few anecdotes. Nonetheless, they can provide interesting examples of the range of students who get admitted.
@Multiverse7 My “hook” was how well I was able to showcase the story and perspective I bring to the table in my application, just like everyone else who gets into elite colleges. That’s what matters most, whether white and rich or poor and minority. I’m not trying to start a fight or debate about holistic admissions. They’re holistic for a reason. They look at context (like ethnicity and income bracket), it’s not a deciding factor (even if you know this, it needs to be reiterated for others that are reading this thread). It’s important to say that people like me that attend these top schools do so DESPITE the hardships we’ve endured, not because of it. MANY high-achieving, low-income kids get denied from elite schools, and blacks and hispanics and people in poverty continue to be underrepresented in top institutions. The odds are against us. I’m not trying to start a debate, but I feel as if you’re implying that I got in because of that. That’s not the case
@Wje9164be For the record, I go to a title I public high school where the average AP exam pass rate is 8% with well over two-thirds of students going to the community college if they choose to go to college at all. In that very same post you referenced, I explained why my GPA is what it is (an upward trend, meaning my freshman year grades are the thing dragging down my GPA).
This is my last post on this thread. Perhaps I’m reading too much into this, but I don’t appreciate being implied that I got in through anything other than my own merit (aka “you got in because you’re black/Hispanic and poor”).
If you’re still reading this, the takeaway I want you to take from me is that whoever you are, the story you present in your application matters. You show that through many things: from classes you’ve taken to your ECs to your letters of recommendation to your essays. In my experience (and I’ve talked to a bunch of people), essays are most important. Others may disagree. So be it. But present a genuine good story, and I think you have a pretty good shot. This is my two cents. I’ve said my peace. Good luck to anyone who’s going through the application process!
@latinvibes you’re righter than many realize.
Many don’t understand how hard and how smart some kids work, the challenges they take on, the good they do, impact they start to have, the level of their thinking. And, how valued that is, to top colleges.
My guess is you’ll do quite well- at the Ivy and in life. Congrats.
As for the interview, it CAN be important but usually is not. I quote the Harvard AO, “the interview will not keep an outstanding candidate from being admitted nor will it get an unqualified applicant admittance”. Having said that I know two applicants personally, which I believe got into Harvard and UChicago due to their interviews. Both were well rounded, academically qualified candidates but nothing that made them stand out (no hooks). Both came back from their respective interviews with Harvard and UChicago that went extremely well and both had further email contact with their interviewer asking about there EA results (both were initially deferred EA). After the deferrals both interviewers followed up with emails to the admissions office further recommending the respective candidates. The interview can and does make a difference in pushing a candidate who does not otherwise “stand out” over the top. BTW, neither was admitted to any other top college, (well, except JHU).
The interview is eyes-on. No one should underestimate it. I think H refers to a not-fabulous interview, not a subpar meeting, where the kid flubs. But even a tremendous endorsement by an interviewer can’t make up for a lackluster app package, itself. Interviewers don’t see the app, don’t have a full view.
I know of students who got into Harvard in spite of the interviewers’ negative recommendations. I know of students who were rejected from Harvard in spite of the interviewers’ positive recommendations. What this means is that if you have something that a particular college wants, the AO would override negative recommendations. That’s how much interview is “worth.” My own personal stance on this is that it’s better to secure positive recommendations than negatives, so do take the interview process seriously.
I’m with @latinvibes about believing it’s the story a student presents that gets them into an elite school. Otherwise you’d only see people getting accepted who followed the “steps” in this article. Schools want interesting students that are going to be successful in life. (like latinvibes) My daughter was shocked that several classmates (4.0 UW GPAs and near if not perfect SAT scores) didn’t get in to elite schools. And likewise, I would bet that several of them were shocked that she did because they really don’t know what she fills her time with (and how it makes her interesting)
@SuburbMom - “My daughter was shocked that several classmates (4.0 UW GPAs and near if not perfect SAT scores) didn’t get in to elite schools. And likewise, I would bet that several of them were shocked that she did because they really don’t know what she fills her time with (and how it makes her interesting).”
The same with my son. He’s 6th out of 366 in the class ranking. His classmates were shocked that he got into several “elite” schools. None of them really knew the depth and the breadth of what preoccupied my son’s EC time and dedication since he was a toddler. Even his high school administrators chose not to acknowledge his top state and national accomplishments since these have nothing to do with the sports. While even a minor, local accomplishments in sports get noted with gushing school announcements and the news media splash in the sports section, my son (and many others like him) just quietly went about his own business. Knowing that thousands of valedictorians get routinely rejected by top schools each admissions cycle, I specifically encouraged my son NOT to play the ranking game but to concentrate more on his EC interests. The college admissions are not so much about numbers but what kind of unique contributions the student can make to the class body.