The problem with Ivies admitting the “sob-story” kids, especially those who are first-generation college attendees is they often do not do very well. They often come from schools where they may have done quite well, but simply don’t prepare them enough. They also lack a support network with collegiate experience.
The admissions workers seem to go for them based on emotion, but it seems like some of them spots would be better off going to the high states, but low hook CC types who would graduate on time.
“First, who says that being a CEO is a measure of success/leadership. Second, who says that the school is the sole factor (or even the major factor) in someone becoming a CEO. Third, “only 30”!!! How many would you expect them to have?!! Considering that what, fewer than 1% of the population goes to Ivies, the fact that 30% of these CEOs did, that’s an amazing success rate for the Ivies!”
Everyone that has some concept of what success and leadership is would include CEO has one measure, one of the best measures. There are others sure - starting companies, non-profits, politics, social work. This whole obsession on getting into a top school or ivy is predicated on these schools giving their graduates a big jump into a successful career, if there was no correlation, why pay the money, go through the stress of the college apps, spend months on positioning themselves for these colleges? The thirty number includes more than ivys, also includes highly selective lacs and privates, like Stanford, Amherst etc… In fact there are schools that produced more fortune 500 CEOs and have smaller enrollment than the ivies - US Military Academy for one. I agree that are a lot of other factors that determines CEO, which again brings be the original question of how going to a selective college helps.
Wow, that’s a lot of assumptions. The Ivies have strong grad rates, lots of support. They don’t need to scrape the bottom of the barrel. Plus you seem to have no idea how low SES kids can achieve, be empowered, engaged in significant ways.
And what makes anyone assume this is about sob stories? It’s true CC often recommends this (some savvy posters excluded.) But it’s no key.
@Mandalorian Good point. There was an article recently from the NYT about lower SES kids at Columbia struggling emotionally and financially (e.g., not being able to eat over school holiday periods when canteen is closed) and how CU was moving quickly to provide more support.
Beware the level of knowledge from NYT. The common media is not the resource it once was. Remember, this thread started with a USA Today article, written by some college junior, for heaven’s sake. LOL.
Let’s face it, getting into Ivy like schools is much more closely related to your base (legacy, athlete, race…), how well you prepare during the HS (GPA, SAT/ACT, EC…) and application process (essays…), which as a whole can be more or less ‘made up’, than what (success) you eventually would achieve after graduation. There’re a whole lot other factors that go into the latter later in life. There’s an article recently surveyed top 25 Silicon Valley companies on the top colleges they hire/promote from, and non of top 10 is an Ivy. I know SV is tech heavy but still.
That said, getting into a school that say only say 5% can get into is in itself a huge reason for many to go down the path: to claim the status symbol that you or your kid (and so you, really) is better than the most. Just another way to show the pure ‘I am better than you’ source of pride. As to what better good that really leads to, who knows. The ‘So you went to Harvard’ joke has been told many times. But at least at the moment you win the prize. Good or bad, it’s become a sport for tiger moms/kids and the likes, with the ‘help’ of all kinds of college ranking out there, and of course, CC like sites.
@londondad I don’t know about your “unscientific survey” this year, but the majority of British students accepted by Harvard were not URMs (none accepted from the American School were URMs). I serve on the Schools and Scholarships Committee and so saw the admit lists. You are correct however that far fewer “public school” students were admitted. This was a conscious decision taken by Harvard (and the other Ivies and US universities) to broaden the intake. Indeed, Harvard admissions officers toured the UK along with those of other Ivies as part of an effort to attract a more socio-economically diverse group of candidates. This succeeded as the majority of accepted students were financial aid recipients. The best advice that can be offered to British “public schools” parents would be to look beyond the Ivies because this year was not a fluke. It is now fiendishly hard for a student from a London private school to be admitted by any Ivy.
One problem is that many public school parents seem to think that it is easier to get into an American Ivy than Oxbridge. The opposite is the case. Most public schools presenting candidates this year had no one admitted. That is a pattern likely to be repeated in the future and the advice being given to schools is not to expect more than 1-2 students being accepted in any year.
@lookingforward Agree 100% regarding SES students. Columbia, Harvard, Princeton and many other universities now provide financial assistance for food and housing over vacation periods. And most of these universities provide grants so that students can undertake unpaid internships during the summer. Huge efforts are being made to support SES students and other students with special circumstances. More needs to be done but at least efforts are being made.
@Just4Years I agree Students from economically advantaged families can afford special tutors, SAT coaching, “consultants” etc. It’s therefore not surprising that they achieve higher test scores. Having worked in admissions, however, it is pretty easy to identify these students. I used to love reading beautifully crafted essays and then see that the student got a 580 on verbal section of the SAT.
@exlibris97 I think your comments in the second paragraph of your post are spot-on. I do some informal consulting and I am amazed how many parents whose kids are better fits for the US curriculum (than the UK) will not look beyond the Ivies for Universities. Fortunately the top secondary schools have picked up on this. I am aware on one top 5 (national school) London school who are meeting with parents in Year 10 and actively encouraging them to initially focus on top LACs when compiling their US college list and only apply to Ivies as lottery tickets.
It is unfortunate though, that the Ivies have turned their backs on the London schools as these are some of the top students in the world. My daughter’s school has over 25% of the students on need-based bursaries and the Ivies are aware of this. Several of the Ivies have visited her school in the last two years (including Yale and Dartmouth who only visited her school that year) yet everyone from her school got rejected this year other than the one athlete.
A way in? Focus on one of the common entrances: first gen, URM with impoverished background, recruited athlete, foreign national with ties to royalty or Presidency. It’s not enough to be full pay or legacy with stellar SSAT and GPA.
If you can’t get in one of the front door entrances, then you better have a Plan B. Cause there ain’t no back door.
I know most of the kids in our local high school that have been accepted this year Ivy League schools or their equivalents. None of them had any of the hooks you describe.
@hebegebe My kids got in and as far as I am aware, we aren’t related to foreign royalty. I wonder if I showed up at Buckingham Palace they would let me in as a distant relative!
(Also, you also don’t need to be impoverished to get substantial financial aid any longer).
@londondad I’d take heart as the numbers admitted from specific schools fluctuate tremendously from year to year. One year 5 got in from Eton, the next two years zero. I know that bursary and scholarship students are actively sought.
The problem I’ve witnessed is that the British schools don’t know how to write American style letters of recommendation, the candidate’s essays then to be more UCAS style than American, and the importance of extracurriculars is greatly under-estimated. As a result, the students are rated lower on these dimensions and this can hurt
I also wish these schools would promote the LACs, Michigan, UVA, University of California and University of Chicago the same way they push the Ivies. It’s not as if Oxbridge accepts a ton of students from Exeter and Andover in the USA. Many outstanding American universities would love to have these students.
@preppedparent My kid checked the ORM boxes – Asian & Caucasian. She’s good at math, English, Foreign language, and music. She had strong stats and wrote good essays, came from a small public school in the midwest without legacy, URM, athletics, or any other advantage. It’s true that it’s very hard to get into the ivies, but it’s false to suggest that it’s all about identity and hooks. Sometimes it is about fit, talent, & hard work.
@LadyMeowMeow That’s the Plan B I was referring to. My daughter got into an upper ivy and WL at Harvard also.
But my point is that the majority of in’s have a hook. We can agree to disagree.
Hebegebe’s young friends likely got some good advising.
LMM, and some savvy thinking.
Where in the Midwest would matter, since there are many highly competitive kids in and around the urban areas. It is absolutely too simplistic to try to point to some overriding (perceived) hook.
Exlibris97’s comment about the app pkg applies to many US kids, as well. Despite what happened during 3.5 years of hs, the app pkg is where the rubber hits the road.
@preppedparent I don’t think any adcom has ever looked at an applicant from my town/ state and thought “geo diversity.” My kid managed to take college classes while in high school and was close enough to an urban center to develop her EC to a high level, but such circumstances & opportunities are common. I just don’t think you can manufacture a hook for her.
@LadyMeowMeow Nobody should suggest that having a hook is a guaranteed admit, it does do one thing…it separates you from the crowd. You can also separate yourself in other ways, academics/EC’s/life stories/essays and guess what, most Ivies students are Caucasian and Asian (these are the two most populous groups).