That isn’t important to me. I want my kids to meet all kinds of people, including those who might academically have other interests and lower stats or higher ones.
I still remember the guy I met at college who was from Iran and was against the Shaw and full of opinions about the political climate. I have no idea what his stats were or if he was my academic peer or not. College was such a different world from the one I came from.
I don’t think that bothers people at all - in my mind, the environments are simply different.
Retention Rates and 4-Year Graduation Rates also speak to this broader distinction regarding having more a similar academic student profile surrounding oneself, as many find it easier to manage their own efforts when there are fewer moving parts - given the top schools in these categories include both universities and LAC’s, I don’t think its an LAC issue at all.
No doubt it doesn’t bother many people. I posted in response to some parents who worried that their son or daughter would not find enough “intellectual peers” at Honors Colleges. I wanted to point out that the U. of Pittsburgh has twice as many “intellectual peers” (and not all in the Honors College) as the very best LAC and 3 or 4 times as many as some of the other selective LACs.
LACs absolutely give a different experience than a large university. But that experience is not because a student finds “intellectual peers” there and not at state universities.
Perhaps if only a small number of students at state universities were high-scoring, that might be the case. But when 25% or 35% of them are, it isn’t as if a student needs to go searching to find that one in a hundred “intellectual peer” to talk to.
For me, given the cost of any college, 4-Year Graduation Rate matters a lot - it doesn’t need to be in the mid-80’s, but I also wouldn’t want mid-50’s.
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/highest-grad-rate
There are plenty of smart kids at flagships, private U’s, and LACs. There is a higher likelihood that the average student at a highly selective LAC or private U will be a high-stat kid, but in sheer numbers there are plenty to go around and high-stat kids at all three types of school can benefit from sitting next to each other in class.
So then, how do we choose a school? I think it comes down to variables like curricular style, class size/prof interaction, breadth of majors/programs available, availability of internships and research, environmental factors, sports and social vibe, housing and food… and cost.
But “there aren’t enough smart kids” shouldn’t be a concern. The concentration might be higher at the highly selective private LAC or U, but they can still be surrounded by high-stat kids at the state U, especially if the honors program is robust, honors classes are available, etc. And that’s if a kid wants that experience; I find variety refreshing, personally.
@prezbucky, don’t disagree, but have also seen students at larger state universities openly tout that they are on the “5-year plan” or “6-year plan” which then continues to feed lower 4-year graduation rates - yes, I know there are other factors, but this mindset is real for far too many.
Yes, certainly there are kids who are there to have a good time primarily, for whom the learning takes a back seat to toga parties – and they are more prevalent at most state schools than they are at most selective private schools.
I attended such a school – UW-Madison. In that particular mix there are lots of very smart, serious students, but also many who just want to get away from the folks and party. But many of them, if they don’t put in the necessary work, fail to stick around for those 5-6 glorious years – and they hurt not just the 4-year grad rate, but the grad rate period.
If you want to avoid them – period – in the classroom, that will be harder to do at the state U, the degree to which depends on access to honors-only classes during the first two years.
Once you’re into your major, the classes shrink and those who remain might still be having a good time, but they are also students and have done well enough, and learned enough, to be accepted into that major/program.
I have one child who took a semester off to do an internship at Disney (not official through the school). She’ll graduate in 8 semesters but it still hits the school’s 4 year grad rate. I don’t care.
Other daughter is an engineer and she’ll graduate in 8 straight semesters. That stat helps her school where the average is 5-6 years because many do co-ops or take lighter loads to work during internships.
Not everyone has a parent paying for 4 years at an LAC.
“I do think one would want to surround their S or D with as many academic peers as possible, regardless of whether that is at a university or LAC.”
That depends on what type of environment a kid thrives in best (and at what stage in his/her life, etc.)
And that depends on the kid.
While we definitely want our S19 to meet all kinds of kids, his concern is that classes would be too “easy” if he went to college with kids who maybe aren’t as accomplished or didn’t come from a very academic high school. Maybe that’s just the high school perspective of a 16 year old. The regular classes at are our high school are WAY easier than the honors and AP classes. He only took one non-honors class (freshman year) and he was neither challenged nor learned anything. There was little to no homework and the kids in the class didn’t care about learning. I saw the class first hand on a parents day where the school lets parents go to school with their kids. The class was lame. In contrast, I’ve seen his honors and AP classes and they are awesome. He’s visited some elite LACs and sat in on classes during his visits and he says that those classes were very similar to his AP classes at the high school.
I feel like he could be mistaken and that college classes would never be like a non-honors class at his high school…but he knows kids who take those classes and they are most likely going to some big state schools. He doesn’t see himself going to college with those kids. He has worked his tail off while these kids are hanging out in town. Of course, we tell him that there will be a mix of kids at a big state university. That’s the point of the state systems. As a high school student, though, he’s not really interested in the goals of different types of universities. When he hears that x-student who he’s known since kindergarten will probably go to x-state school, it’s a turn off if that student has been a goof off at school. S19 not a conceited kid. Far from it. He’s just being honest when he says that he wants to be around certain types of students. He’s looking forward to meeting kids from different backgrounds and with different interests and being challenged by them. That’s why, when I think about honors colleges at state universities, we would need a very specific type of program. I would expect that these programs are highly selective and he could very easily not make the cut…but those are the types we would maybe consider.
I love hearing when kids are thriving at a state school’s honors program. And the mix of “fun” and strong academics could very well be appealing to S19. There are other things to consider, though, like housing being available for four years and a community type feeling that he prefers. We also have to take into account that he’s undecided on major. If he was locked into a major and was super outgoing enough to find a roommate to share an apartment with sophomore year, then an honors college might be a better fit. So, back to the original question - I think it’s just hard to compare a private uni to a state school honors college. Of course, there are pros and cons. In most cases, I would think one would be a better choice over the other depending on the student’s wants/needs for college. Some honors type kids want more independence and love the idea of a big school. And some of them need a little more guidance and a closer-knit community that certain (not all) private schools can give them.
@Chembiodad:
“For me, given the cost of any college, 4-Year Graduation Rate matters a lot - it doesn’t need to be in the mid-80’s, but I also wouldn’t want mid-50’s.”
What matters is what you pay and what your kid’s graduation chances are.
Now, there are kids who are easily susceptible to outside influences (and everyone has to judge their own kid), but I doubt that most emotionally & mentally grounded kids from a supportive upper-middle-class family who can get in to top-ranked LACs and are hard-working would have much trouble graduating from a public flagship in 4 years (especially since many would be entering with a fair amount of AP credits).
Of course thousands of students prefer smaller schools and choose them every year. It doesn’t mean that there will be more academic peers or that things will be easier or cozy. Remember Harvard has its Jarrod Kushners too.
I have had much more trouble dealing with the smaller of the two schools my kids go to. Never an issue at the flagship but the smaller (3500 students) school is really a PITA.
It really depends. At some universities a majority of honors college kids are in STEM, for instance, with engineering or premeds heavily represented. A kid interested in writing would find peers at Kenyon, a kid interested in foreign language at Middlebury or Dickinson. The ChemE kids are super smart but not necessarily fascinated with German elections. Some kids may love the tailgate/game weekend atmosphere and others can’t wait to get away from it.
One’s perception of a large class varies - for some, it’s anything above 24, because discussion becomes harder and rarer. For some it’s a class in a lecture hall with hundreds, and 40 is small.
There’s also the time professors have for undergraduates - 3 hours for two groups of 18 +1 group of 12, or 2 hours for one group of 130 + one group of 40?
A personal adviser whom you meet over lunch during orientation with 5 other freshmen whom s/he’ll follow until a major is declared , or someone you see in a building who doesn’t know you and who changes depending on time and day.
Etc.
Note that for lower income and middle class families elite LACs are often cheaper than the state flagship.
For full pay families the terms of the discussion are different financially but for most American families it’s not room and board at honors college v. Full pay at elite LAC. If the family can pay, it becomes a matter of ‘is it worth it for my child, their personality, their interests, their ambitions, what their HS environment had been like so far.’ etc
I have become a little contrarian on this subject. DS18 is my oldest and has demonstrated strong academic ability (35 ACT/likely NMF, 4.0UW, 1 out of class of 350, strong ECs, etc.). HS was a pretty easy ride for him. We love his HS friend group. They are a wonderful group of kids. When he moves on to college one of my goals was to see him be surrounded by a larger group of peers that would challenge and stimulate him. Early on as full pay family I worried I was going to have to sacrifice that unless I was willing to the freight at a more elite national U or LAC. Then he didn’t want to go far away and I worried he just wasn’t going to be able to find that experience.
I no longer worry about that at all. He is planning to attend either Kentucky or Louisville. He has already been accepted to the honors program at Louisville, and we will know soon whether he made it in at UK also. Each program has roughly 500 spots for incoming freshman students. Average ACT for students in the program is 32 at UK and 31 at U of L. As someone pointed out, that’s the average. Plenty of kids above those stats. Point being, at both schools, there is going to be a peer group larger than his HS senior class (350ish) of very bright and very motivated students. I no longer feel the need to set myself up for a $200k plus 4 year outlay when he will find what I wanted for him at a $0 net 4 year cost at U of L or a $25k 4 year cost at UK.
I think you can make a case that the average state U honors college kids are more motivated than their academic peers at other more prestigious institutions. They understand that the hard work they put into their own education will end up making the difference rather than a brand name mom and dad purchased for them. Have had the opportunity to meet many of them up close during the process with scholarship interviews, etc. Some really terrific kids. I am happy to send DS off to join them.
I think 4-year graduation rates tend to correspond with having a smaller % of low-income students at a school and a disproportionately high number of students from the 1%. It isn’t a perfect correlation – certainly schools like Pomona are stellar in recruiting many low-income students and making sure they stay (although Pomona has 14% of students from the 1%, too). But nearly every college that has an extremely high 4-year graduation rate on that list also has a very high percentage of high income students in comparison to the number of low-income ones.
For example, both Pittsburgh and Case Western Reserve have 64% 4-year graduation rates. Case has 4% of students from the top 1% and 20% from the bottom 60% (families incomes of $65,000 and under). Pitt has only 2% of students from the top 1% and 23% from the bottom 60%. (Stats from the NY Times article “Some Colleges Have More Students From the Top 1 Percent Than the Bottom 60.”)
But with just a few exceptions, the colleges on your list of those with high 4-year graduation rates are the ones that have more students from the top 1% than they do from the bottom 60%. And even the ones that don’t actually have more students from the top 1% do have nearly equal numbers.
In fact, what I realized is that real difference between state honors colleges and small LACs isn’t that “intellectual peers” are hard to find. It is that the “intellectual peers” you find at small LACs will be far, far more affluent than the “intellectual peers” you find at honors colleges.
At U. Pittsburgh, you won’t have to search for “intellectual peers” because 1/4 of the students have SAT scores of 700 and higher. But you will have to search to find students from the top 1%, as very few students at the university are from those families. But at a small LAC, there very well may be more students from the top 1% than from the bottom 60% of family incomes. You’ll be surrounded by them.
Edit: The experience might best be compared to sending your kid to a large public magnet school versus a small private school. If you are looking for bright peers, both schools have them, with the large public magnets having far more in total.
But if you are looking for affluent peers, the place to go is the small private school, because the differences in the family income of your child’s “intellectual peers” will be stark.
“In fact, what I realized is that real difference between state honors colleges and small LACs isn’t that “intellectual peers” are hard to find. It is that the “intellectual peers” you find at small LACs will be far, far more affluent than the “intellectual peers” you find at honors colleges.”
“But if you are looking for affluent peers, the place to go is the small private school, because the differences in the family income of your child’s “intellectual peers” will be stark.”
@observer12 I think you hit the nail on the head. Have come to the same realization myself.
As someone said up thread, these institutions are more characterized by who they exclude than who they accept. Which may be what some people are looking for. Not us. Especially not for cost difference that comes with it.
Well, there are some LACs that try really hard to make their school affordable to low income students. Grinnell is 19% Pell Grant kids. That’s not an insignificant number.
I absolutely agree about Grinnell! They do an impressive job recruiting low-income students. And they have almost 4x as many students from the bottom 60% of family income as from the top 1% (5.5% from top 1% versus 24.6% from bottom 60%.) I didn’t see their 4-year graduation rate on that list, but I wonder if it is lower than average for top LAC because their students are overall less affluent.
My son required higher stats to be accepted into his Honors program than he did for both of the LACs he was accepted to. He has a nice balance of affluent peers and some less affluent peers in his program. The bottom line is unless you’ve attended both types of institutions or you children have, it’s impossible to accurately compare the two.
@homerdog I strongly recommend having your child visit depts and request to sit in on classes at various campuses. My dd was convinced she wanted a small campus until she visited several and did an overnight. She decided that she felt suffocated on a small campus. She did a major 180 and decided she wanted a large state U’s campus. She is extremely happy that she made that decision.
FWIW, my kids have all ended up choosing publics. My 2 current college kids are both in small honors cohorts within their universities’ honor colleges, Randall Research Scholars at Bama and Top Scholar at USCarolina. Both are surrounded by a mixture of students in general (very academic and non-partiers to academic and partiers) and have had no problem finding their own group of peers with similar interests to theirs.