This discussion was created from comments split from: High end college vs. honors program at state college?.
Ok so this topic is now a hot one in my household. My son has a 35 ACT, 1490 PSAT, the grades to match and is sort of middling with his ECs, pretty good but nothing that would blow you away. His brother, my older son, is at Yale and loves it. What my younger son now feels is that he wants to do ED at a “moonshot” school, Stanford or Princeton at the moment. But he is realistic that his chances are not that great to get into the moonshot place. If he doesnt his feeling is that he might go to an honors program for a full ride. His feeling is that college is all about branding and that some schools brands are worth $250k but most arent. His mother and I both went to pretty good schools (top 15) but Im starting to think that my younger son is right. Id like to hear thoughts on this, because I feel as though this is a generational thing and my son is ahead of the curve.
My daughter sounds similar to yours. She had a 33 ACT and a 3.8 GPA, so she wasn’t going to get into the elite schools. She went to a large public with an honors college (her choice - she only applied to large publics). The honors college offered small (15 people) discussion-based courses that fulfilled Gen Ed requirements. They tended to be interesting courses, but had nothing to do with D’s major. The university itself offered some honors sections of lower-level major courses, but D never took them because either they didn’t fit into her schedule or she preferred a different teacher. So while she was in the Honors College and took enough honors courses to graduate from the Honors College, for the most part she was taking classes with the rest of the university, not just with Honors College students. She was fine with that, as there were plenty of smart kids there and she found most of her courses to be challenging. She certainly did not coast through and she worked hard. But that is a different Honors College experience than one where you’re taking many of your classes in an Honors College with other Honors College students. Honors colleges really run the gamut, and you need to look at them carefully. My daughter has friends who went to prestigious schools and paid full freight there, and she’s discussed their experiences with them and she doesn’t feel as though their educations were any better than her tuition-free (merit scholarship) public university education. I’m sure they were different, and maybe better in some ways, but she was completely happy and satisfied with the education she received. And as a bonus, she got to watch a lot of quality college football.
@beth’s mom Football is important to me, not so much to my son. I see the benefits of going to a place like Yale through my older son and its amazing. My younger son has better scores and grades than my older son but doesnt have a 'hook". The world isnt a meritocracy and he knows that. Part of me knows that my son is right and that colleges are brands but so? Welcome to the world, brands matter. My concern is that these honors colleges tend to be more insular. Maybe Im wrong, I think we just need to get out there and look.
Answer is it depends on the kid, goals, career paths, schools at issue and finances. No “right” answer in all circumstances. Each kid/family has to make their own decision. And then move forward. Many different paths to a happy life (which it seems to me is the ultimate goal).
Im aware of that, but it doesnt negate the fact that a choice must be made. This site seems to be about soliciting examples of others experiences so that one can form an individual decision.
We were lucky that our instate flagship is a top tier school. Honors programs/colleges vary widely among state flagships. Some are at top tier schools and offer grad school level courses to undergrads in top 10 programs. Others seem wimpy to me- taking junky survey courses (all honors students are not as interested in nor as good in all subjects)and living with only honors kids with diverse areas of abilities and interests in different areas may not be as good as being able to take many, many more honors courses at all level of the undergrad college experience. a lot depends on the overall student body.
wchatar2. Definitely explore Honors options at various public U’s. Look at the rigor of honors classes and their availability. For example, look at options for intro courses. Some of the top tier private schools only offer one general chemistry, calculus and physics tracks. UW-Madison has different courses fulfilling different needs in those.
Public flagships serve not only the good state students but fulfill a need for the many top/gifted students who can’t afford elite schools (plus the fact that there is not enough room in those for all equally deserving students). You will find students with perfect test scores- SAT/ACT/AP and high grades in their state flagship. You will also find top notch research opportunities for these students. In fact, depending on the major, one can find BETTER academics in some fields than at HYP…
I think this is a hugely individual decision. My kids have nearly identical stats (one had better ECs and slightly lower grades; the other has perfect grades, lesser ECs) and my current college freshman opted for a public school/merit scholarship/Honors College over a “better” school. In her case, this is also a smaller school, which was just plain a better fit for her, as she would not have been happy at a giant school. My current high school senior is looking at a large elite school, instead. He’d rather be surrounded by the cream of the crop and pushed to work his hardest.
As for what it means down the line, again, it depends on what field they wish to pursue and how they’ll navigate their environment. You can arguably stand out more easily at a smaller and/or “lesser” school, if you choose to do so, while a “better” school may have more opportunities simply by virtue of name recognition.
Personally, I think trying to decide through the lens of “for the rest of your life” or even “future job” at 17 or 18 is a tough task. For us it’s more about Where will you feel more comfortable? What environment works best for you? Where do you see yourself finding your people and working to your potential? Again: highly individual.
These are not the only two choices. What about all the unsung LACs that have plenty of bright, engaged students, small classes, offer research and internship opportunities, etc., offer merit scholarships, and many of which have way better odds of admission than “moonshot?”
@wchatar2 - Why would you think your son isn’t that competitive for top schools? Princeton and Stanford are both very competitive for sure, but his ACT scores fall in the middle 50% accepted students, and if he has the grades to match then he likely has at least average chances.
But even if he doesn’t get into a school with a <10% acceptance rates, there are some great universities and college with acceptance rates in the 20-50% range where he could probably gain admission and have a great experience - places like Boston College, Brandeis, Carnegie Mellon, University of Rochester, Wake Forest, Tulane, or University of Miami (or even places in the 15-20% range, like Washington University in St. Louis , University of Southern California, and Georgetown).
And there are, as @alooknac pointed out, some really excellent LACs too.
There was another threat (or more) about which schools (brands) are worth the full freight free if you get in. Otherwise why not just save the money for the rest of life or graduate school? The question is where that line of value is drawn. $60-70K per year might be worth it for the top 10 universities or LAC’s. What about the top 20, 30, 40, 50? At some point, the arithmetic becomes compelling for full pay students to go to the public college, especially those who offer merit aid. I guess that line is drawn by each family.
For example, my daughter applied to Duke ED. She would be a statistically average student there so she might not get in. We find out tomorrow. So if she goes to plan B, should she go to Alabama or our state college and save ~$200,000 cash-- or try for a second tier (wherever you want to draw that line) school and still pay full freight? No good answer for us so I appreciate hearing from other parents having gone through the same situation who share their thought process.
Is $250k a lot of money to the OP? Maybe it’s less than a year’s salary for you. Maybe your son will make well over $100k after graduation. If so, I think letting him go wherever he wants is a better choice. We all can be young only once. Explore. (But this is someone without much money talking)
@juillet We have been on the merry go round with my first son, perfect grades and scores are really just the ante to get into the game, I think my younger son knows that. I think his dilemma is that he believes that, from a financial perspective, the schools you list, all great and all schools that are on his radar, cost the same amount as the “big name” schools and dont offer the same brand recognition. I think that he is starting from the supposition that once you leave HYPS that you can get the same education at any school and money becomes a factor. Im unsure how I feel about that although I think there is more truth to it than Im willing to admit to myself.
@WISdad23 Good luck to your daughter, I think that will be almost our identical situation next year.
@eiholi I hope you are joking. Ive taught my kids that money means something. The tuition is in the bank for my son but $250k is a lot of money to Warren Buffett and a TON of money to a 16 year old. At least I hope it is.
I’m one who thinks that many of the colleges juilliet named do offer things that are worth paying for - including brand recognition in at least some fields. (Georgetown School of Foreign Service for example.) There is also the question of wanting to be around where bright motivated kids are “thick on the ground”. Any large public flagship will have a large cohort of bright kids, and honors colleges may make it easier to find them, but at many colleges really dedicated students may be in the minority and you will inevitably being taking kids who are majoring in partying some of the time.
We live in NY so we have no state flagship. None of the SUNYs offered the kind of experiences my kids were looking for. One attended a private that was top in his field (CS), the other went to Tufts and majored in IR, which is a field it’s also quite well known for because of the Fletcher School. (My son would say somewhat undeservedly so, BTW.)
This is a hugely individual decision. Family economics are probably the key driver but after that, it’s still hard to make any generalizations without knowing what the kid is interested in. If med school or law school are the end goals than it’s harder to justify the expense of a high end school. If the kid is aiming for IB or consulting then it’s a different matter. You can get those jobs from anywhere but it’s infinitely easier from a top 10-15 school.
I’m a full pay parent with my oldest at a top 10 school. I’m also a grad of a highly rated public that I love and donate money to on a yearly basis. I always thought the high end privates were overrated, unnecessary, and much ado about nothing. Then I visited one and was absolutely blown away at the level of service and guidance they offer. And now that my kid is there and thriving, I’m just glad I can afford it. I’m still a little sad that he’s not doing the honors program at my alma mater but he constantly reminds me that he can still be a fan of the football team even if he doesn’t do undergrad there.
There are so many factors that realistically should go into a decision like this. I think in order of importance these must include at least the following:
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Cost - This is the big elephant in the room. If you can truly afford to send a child to private school then this is not of great concern. If $250k is a large amount of money for you, you need to include some sort of value proposition.
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Desire - Where does your son really want to go to school? Assuming that #1 is satisfied, this is very important. Why does he/she want to go to an elite school? Is it to make parents proud or really wants to stretch academically and socially. The students at the schools are really different from the students at State Flagships.
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Attitude - If your child is realistically considering on elite school, he/she will often have been one of the smartest in the room. Some people become very comfortable in an environment where they can dominate (in a good way). How do you think that they will react to being in the bottom 1/3 of a particular class? Some kids wilt when confronted with people that are smarter than they are and some rise to the occasion as a challenge. You need to be realistic as to what his/her reaction might be.
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Success - What is this in college? Would a 3.2 at Yale or a 3.8 at a state flagship be viewed as more of a success? Earning a high GPA is more difficult at an elite school. [if you have not read Malcom Gladwells “David and Goliath” you really should as a couple of the chapters provide food for thought] Yes a 3.8 at Yale is the best of all worlds but it is very difficult to know who will be the elite of the elite versus the mass of the elite.
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Future - What does he/she want to do? There are some careers that almost require an elite schooling background ( investment banking, supreme court). There are others like medicine that can be more difficult coming from an elite school background (3.2 @ Yale and you are less likely to make medical school than 3.8 at State Flagship)
In the end, the decision that you make should involve all of the above. Your decision could be very different from what others ultimately decide on. As long as you give it proper consideration it’s hard to fault your decision.
I would like to say @FlaParent (3) attitude is often not recognized or appreciated enough. One of my professor colleagues who used teach at Yale told me that she had encountered endless Yale freshmen who had difficulties to accept that they were not the biggest fish in the ocean at first. Most were able to adjust eventually, but not every one.
Ehhhh I disagree. Pretty strongly, actually. I think it’s misguided to think there’s “a handful of 10 elite schools” and “everyone else.” Colleges and universities are on a spectrum. Now, I would be the first one to tell you that honors colleges and public universities are perfectly good - often excellent - valid choices to make for college education.
The first thing is look at the actual admissions statistics of the schools. The schools in the 20-40% range have students whose profiles are often just as good as the ones who go to HYPS et al. For example, Brandeis’s students scored between a 29 and a 32 on the ACT, on average, and 71% of them were in the top 10% of their high school class. Boston College’s students score between a 30 and a 33 and 81% were in the top 10% of their class. Georgetown’s students score, on average, between a 30 and a 34 and 89% of them were in the top 10% of their high school class. By comparison, HYPS students tend to score between around a 31 and a 35 on the ACT and about 95% are in the top tenth. We’re talking about the 95th percentile of kids vs. maybe like the 92nd or 93rd percentile. Is that a meaningful difference? No, not really.
First day of law school a professor commented that “half of you will be in the bottom half of this class, and of the entire class.”
People were dumbstruck. It was as if they somehow thought ‘magic math’ would take over and as in Lake Wobegon, everyone would be above average.
@juillet I understand what you are saying but I think what you say can be extrapolated to almost every college. I think my sons feeling is that colleges are about marketing, he gets four or five pieces of mail a day from various places. And that what they are offering is, yes at its most basic level, an education. But in order to get students and their parents to fork over the vast sum of money that will keep them in business they have to convince their customers-students and their parents- that there is something special about their particular institution.I think that is where they lose my son. If a Toyota costs the same as a Rolls Royce, why would you buy the Toyota? Because Rolls Royce refuses to sell to you because you were second bassoonist instead of first in the state orchestra? I believe that there are super bright, super motivated students at almost every school, my son does as well. But once a price tag is attached I think his perception changes, if there are bright, motivated students at every, say, top 100 school, why not choose the cheapest one because, with all respect, he is not sure how much the “Boston College” brand is worth in the post graduate marketplace or how singular an experience it is as an institution. I think his feeling is that his college experience will be formed by the people he meets and befriends. I realize that this is a contentious, and probably incorrect, view but I struggle to come up with a cogent argument to refute it.