@Mom2aphysicsgeek I exercised great restraint by not posting that earlier .
@observer12 Again, there are wealthy kids who do not take things for granted. Our kids are very thankful that we can afford to send them to college. They understand that we’ve worked hard and given up other things in order to have savings for school. We’ve been lucky but we’ve also made saving for school a priority.
And I do believe that different kids want different college experiences. To each his own.
I have no issue with students wanting different experiences , that’s why there are so many different choices. It’s the attitude that one’s choice is overall superior to another that is offensive .
I agree. There are wealthy kids who do not take things for granted. Did I say there weren’t?
But if you have a college where over half of the students are in the top 10% of HHI, with more from the top 1% than from the bottom 60%, you are going to have more privileged students. FYI - there is nothing wrong with privilege if you have it. It is about RECOGNIZING it. That’s what “check your privilege” means. I was once shocked at an extracurricular gathering of students when I heard an educator I think highly of casually asking a room full of 12 year olds "where will your family be traveling to this summer? instead of “is anyone traveling somewhere interesting this summer?” Granted, most (but not all) of the students were quite affluent and were probably going somewhere, but there was something about the wording of her question and the assumptions she had that I found off-putting and I’m usually oblivious to those kinds of things. It was the first time I wondered about her background.
To be fair, one of the great things about very selective private colleges is that most students do recognize their own privilege. What some on the right fear are “colleges full of liberals” are really colleges full of affluent smart students who understand that they were given advantages and it wasn’t just their own hard work. However, it can be difficult to recognize quite how privileged you are when you are in a small academic community where most of the other students are just as privileged. Put that same kid in a state honors college and suddenly his perception will change. And those state honors colleges are still far more affluent than the general population! But to a typical kid in the 1% comparing the state honors college to the private college he just transferred from, he would probably believe that he is with a lot of middle class and poor kids! Not that he was STILL with a group of generally privileged students who were not nearly as privileged as the group he left behind. Because families as affluent as the students he left behind are actually extremely rare. Except at certain selective private colleges.
So to me, one of the negatives of most of those highly selective private colleges can be the excess of privilege, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t many advantages that outweigh that negative. There are! But I agree with @carolinamom2boys – I’m offended by the attitude that a private college education is objectively superior. I just think it is objectively different with some positives and negatives just like the experience at a state honors college has positives and negatives.
But there may not be that many students from actual poor (Pell grant) families at some state flagships.
Also, lots of people tend to think of themselves as “middle class”, even if their income and wealth mean no financial aid at HYPS. But that may be because many people compare themselves to those even wealthier (up to Forbes 400 type plutocrats and the like) but not those who are poorer (if they even know what typical levels of income and wealth are in the US).
^Would someone please explain to me why a place like the University of Virginia needs an honors college? Isn’t the term itself kind of redundant? Does Berkeley have an honors college?
@circuitrider -There are plenty of top schools with honors colleges or honors programs. They offer several advantages: things like preferential registration, smaller classes, colloquia classes, sometimes special housing, etc.
@circuitrider Berkeley Regents’ scholarship is not that different from UVA Echols scholar program (except it actually has some money attached!), with recognition given to similar number (and %) of students
Realizing that there would be maybe a couple of dozen exceptions, where a private college is itself privileged to have a very large endowment per student. But worth pointing out I think that when we talk about the average private school, in many cases one is paying more for less than what the state flagship offers. Speaking in terms of amenities like dorms, athletic facilities and student centers, laboratories, libraries, and upgrades in academic buildings. For example, in our area a student might be comparing Centre College with the University of Kentucky. It seems to me when discussing private colleges here most are thinking of only a relatively small number of schools, and not the vast majority of the universe of private colleges.
Making a point here that when the state flagship offers the above amenties, plus smaller classes, honors living learning communities, and other perks, AND is simultaneously a very low cost or even no cost option, it just seems like a no brainer to me. Superior? I wouldn’t use the term, but a considerably better value? Yes.
Again it depends what you want. Centre in many ways offers a stellar education that is better than University of Kentucky’s at the undergrad level, especially with regards to seminars, professor accessibility and study abroad support, with no sports focus and strong Greek life. However the university of Kentucky’s honors college offers a highly individual experience and it’s being renovated to become a national powerhouse, so that a student who wants to balance his/her seminars with large classes and wants the “large university with sports” vibe can find it. I know students who’d be better served at Centre, others at UKentucky. It’s really dependent on who the student is.
Large universities that offer honors programs doesnt mean that every class will be a small class taught by a PhD faculty member. It means that some classes will be smaller. There will still be several very large lecture hall classes with small breakout sections taught by grad students. In contrast, small private schools, especially LACs, will have very free huge classes, and LACs that have no graduate programs will not have grad students teaching sections, and will have easier access to faculty.
Let’s get back on track and away from the airport…Have a lifetime friend with two kids in school; one at state flagship honors college and one at expensive (full pay) private engineering school. Assuming you can afford the choices, It really comes down to the kid. Particular engineering school has an excellent and highly selective integrated engineering / business program. Actually get both degrees with outstanding job placement at world class companies (think IBM, etc.) However, had S2 not been accepted to IBE program, he would have attended honors school with his sister. But he was accepted and my friend saw the value in the program. Could he have done well at state U? Sure. Will he get an unusually outstanding experience and outcome where he is? Probably.
The point is, they could afford the decision and chose what they felt was best for their kid. Many don’t have that option so the honors programs are great at making a better situation for those who want a more intimate setting within the large state U. If you have the resources, do what’s best for your kid. That’s not always a price issue. It’s about value. Value is perceived on an individual basis. I may value that smaller, highly selective college experience more than other CC folk. I may value it less. As an example, I place virtually zero value in a fancy car. I’m not one to pay 50-100k on an asset that will depreciate and ultimately break down and get dinged along the way. I would buy a Camry (and have several times). I can afford the Mercedes, just has no value to me. My kid’s education is a different story as I see it as a launching pad and an investment in their future. Like providing them with a certain set of tools. It’s their job to use them.
And then there’s a school like the one that my son attends that does not have large classes and no grad students teaching the classes either . It is a medium sized public. Every school is different, so making blanket statements to describe programs offered is often inaccurate . That’s why it’s best to look at individual programs to determine fit rather than rely on opinions found on the Internet.
Ack autocorrect in #270. smaller schools and smaller LACs will have very FEW (not free) huge classes
And yes, large schools with graduate teaching programs will often have large lecture hall classes, commonly intro level classes, with breakout sections often taught by grad students whose grad funding is covered by their teaching stipend. Upper level classes in one’s major will typically have smaller classes.
I’d be interested to know if the demographics of students at state flagship honors colleges matches that of the general population at the rest of the college. IOW, is the issue of diversity real or a red herring? Are there more students of color, first gens. and Pell recipients in the honors colleges than at private colleges or the other way around?
^They’re all over the map as @Chembiodad mentioned some pages back. But, I can’t help but notice that among the usual suspects, the schools most popular on the CC boards, UVA sits lower on the social mobility scale than many of the highly endowed LACs. Most of this thread has been fought out between the so-called, 1% and an upper middle class that can’t quite make up its mind whether they envy it, resent it, or think they’ve seen its last days, but, this 2015 chart should be of some help:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2017/10/23/pell-grant-shares-at-top-ranked-colleges-a-sortable-chart/?utm_term=.10d4a2f9ca94
I agree that schools with more Pell Grant students are a good thing for kids (and parents) who want some socio-economic diversity in a school. Remember, though, that diversity also means meeting kids in the middle. Kids from families who don’t take multiple vacations every year. Our town is a little nutty and, yes, we live in a place where the town is dead during spring break since 90% of families go away. Go just one town over, though, and that’s not the case. Sometimes kids of wealthy families know more about families who are really down on their luck - they work on committees that build houses for Habitat or work at the local food pantry. But they don’t meet many kids whose families have a more middle-class situation where the family has everything it needs but cannot afford all of the excesses that a wealthy family may have. My guess is that a public university would always be better at having a full range of diversity.
We’re still swerving off the main path here but, if this kind of diversity is important to a family, then honors program at a state school might be a better fit. Again, maybe that’s a generalization. Need to look at each school individually.
@homerdog - it is a generalization, but it is mostly accurate in my experience. The sweet spot for honors programs at big state schools are high achieving students with SES between roughly 50%-95% of the national average. I think they get very few from the top 1% to 0.1%, and the best students from the lowest SES either stay near home for non-academic reasons or can usually find it cheaper to go private where they are heavily recruited. My experience is completely consistent with the view that at the tippy-top, diversity is a reasonable fraction of Pell Grant recipients, and mostly top 1%, with little concern for the underrepresentation of people in between. It is why I don’t like Pell Grant percentages as the sole measure.
homerdog, you started here:
"I investigated honors programs at a few schools (ASU, Wisconsin, Maryland, Vermont) but I still don’t get the feeling that they give him what he is looking for. First of all, the grades and scores to get into some these programs seem low and I’m not convinced that all of the kids would be intellectual peers. Sure, he could find some kids like him but the point would be for him to not have to search for kids like him. Secondly, some of the programs just offer honors work options. The kids can just do more work for an honors designation. Doesn’t mean classes are smaller. Some schools (like Pitt) let anyone take honors classes.
If anyone knows of a true honors college option, I’m all ears. In our eyes it would include honors housing, small classes, research opportunities, not having to declare a major until the end of soph year, and strong mentorship. More like a real LAC inside a big school. S19 has 3.85 UW/4.7 W GPA, 1540 SAT and will have nine APs. Taking BC Calc this year and Multivariable senior year. Planning on Math 2 and History SAT 2s. He’s undecided on major."
I wonder where you are at this point after all the swerving?
I shared some Pitt stats on the cohort in their honors program as one example, but as to the first concern, whether your S would have to “search for kids like him” (you’ve provided his stats profile) in honors programs at state schools, the answer is there are a number of state honors programs where the answer is an unequivocal “no,” there would need to be no searching. If your S wants the “search” to end at his roommate and dorm floor, look at the programs that have honors dorms. If your S prefers a non-honors dorm b/c it doesn’t create a school within a school living arrangement, no problem there, and the “search” will end when he takes honors classes or programming. Of course, what it means to take honors classes and programming within any given honors program varies, but honors programs where small classes and contact with professors are part of the core experience are not all that hard to find, and as students subdivide into majors as the years go on, classes typically get smaller as well. And as mentioned earlier, Pitt does not let anyone take honors classes (although I don’t say that as if non-honors students are to be avoided, and my D and our family do not feel that way, and I know you don’t either), and I’d be surprised if many honors programs that have any meat on the bone at all do either. And that’s without adding in AP/IB credit your son may earn, which is often given out more liberally at state schools than LACs and will exempt him from some big intro classes.
As to the second concern, programs that offer only honors work options, that may definitely be true, but eliminating those will still leave you with a significant number of state honors options. I think the number of state honors programs at which honors means only doing extra work in a non-honors class are probably quite small, but in any event, there are plenty that offer honors classes and seminars (often also offering honors discussion sections in non-honors classes where again your S would need do no “searching” for academic peers).
Research opportunities I am not as conversant about, and those opportunities will probably vary widely within LAC choices as well. I will say, since you mention Maryland, they have honors living/learning communities that are quite research based (check out Gemstone for example). Pitt is very strong in health sciences, and I imagine undergrad research opportunities in those fields at least could be meaningful there. Undergrad research opportunities are just so school specific, honors or not. I don’t think not declaring a major until end of soph year is an issue. Strong mentorship probably widely varies.
I agree that info on honors programs is hard to find. The only resource I know of devoted to compiling and evaluating info about honors programs is a book called, “INSIDE HONORS: Ratings and Reviews of Sixty Public University Honors Programs.” $17 on Amazon (Willingham is the author). The corresponding website is publicuniversityhonors dot com. I have found the book very helpful (it includes review, for example, of whether honors at a particular school means honors classes or instead just extra work in non-honors classes). Some find it difficult to read, so YMMV.
I also agree that honors programs vary widely. But like with LACs, there is strength in difference. Pitt admits based on stats and HS rigor. Maryland’s honors program involves a selection process that does not result in all high stats kids being admitted (see the UMD admission thread for a good deal of disappointment and some anger about that). PSU Schreyer is supposed to have a very competitive admissions process for the 300 kids that get accepted, and their program is, I think, more honors-specific than some others. ASU Barrett, I think, aspires to something of a LAC within a school model. Bama and South Carolina honors provide great value for high stat kids in terms of merit aid.
I, like you, see strengths and weaknesses in all models, and my D is applying to LACs and has applied to and been admitted into several public honors programs. For her, your question of class size is important like it is for your S. She’d like to be in an urban/metro area, which shrinks the pool of LAC options and put good public honors colleges like Maryland and Pitt on her list alongside aside LACs. She struggles with whether a little jewel box of a school is for her, whether a LAC or a “school within a school.” Questions about the diversity of life experiences within schools or cohorts are important to us too. So are questions of value.
But as to your two original concerns, “searching” for academic peers and the personality of particular honors programs, I’d be quite surprised if your S can’t find two or three or more public honors programs that check the boxes, or enough of them, to make them quite worthy of consideration. Again, YMMV.
Thanks for prompting the discussion!
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@turtle17 wrote:
Well, to be fair, very few colleges are “mostly” 1%. That has a certain robber baron connotation. As @observer12 pointed out some time back, we’re really talking about the top 10% HHI, http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/21178533/#Comment_21178533
I never thought about it before this thread, but to me, that represents a lot of the kids who play sports, particularly the ones that require year-round training; and, frankly, a lot of the kids who may attempt careers in the performing arts. They bring a lot to the table during the school year, especially in places that would otherwise be small villages and cow pastures without them.