<p>I am in the same boat as the OP’s daughter - 4.0 UW, 1830/28. So far, I have done reasonably well in the admissions process. Currently, I’ve been accepted to 3/3, and with decent merit aid from all. Granted, these were safeties, but I’m still quite happy. =) My reachiest schools (Smith, Mount Holyoke, Wesleyan, Conn College), with the exception of Wesleyan, are all test-optional, so I took advantage of such. Hopefully the spring brings many choices!</p>
<p>The answer to this question depends as much on the school in question as on anything else. You might not get the same answer if you are applying to a state university (even a top flight one) as an in-stater vs applying to a private college.
^^ Barring some hook, for example, I would think that 1830/28 test scores would doom most applicants at Wesleyan (and many other schools) even with a 4.0. Frankly, for most kids, if you have a 4.0 with those scores it would suggest that something about your curriculum and/or your school is not the most competitive, because I know lots of kids with 1400+/1600 who don’t break 3.5 GPAs in competitive schools.</p>
<p>Personally, I’d consider my curriculum somewhat rigorous, though I may be incorrect. My AP Lit teacher is a notoriously hard grader, and he told me that I’m within the top 5% of the class… and I’m barely breaking a 90. I’ve done really well on APs, too, so I really have no idea (2 5s and 2 4s so far).
I think the issue may be with the lack of preparation by my school. They offered an after-school SAT prep program for free, which I enrolled in, but it was terribly dumbed down. For instance, my class did not know what f=x meant. Yes, seriously. I had learned such in elementary school through the gifted program, so of course, the prep course was a waste. Other than that, there was no mention of test prep within any of my classes. I bought prep books and attempted to study on my own, but that didn’t seem to do much. </p>
<p>On Wesleyan… I’m not expecting to be accepted. Its my third choice too, (Smith and Mount Holyoke are tied for #1 at the moment) so I won’t be too down if the expected happens. I don’t think I have any hooks (possibly first gen… maybe? My mom has two associates, and my dad took one class at the local CC and dropped out), and my area is overrepresented, so I’m not getting my hopes up.</p>
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<p>Not a URM or any “hook”. By “good reasons” I simply meant that she had strengths that were highlighted in her application, and that the reach schools that accepted her were ones where those strengths were likely to be meaningful. </p>
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The year my daughter was admitted to Barnard, 75% of ACT submitters in the class had scores of of 29+. 62% had ACT’s of 30 or above. On the other hand, 3% of the class had ACT scores of 23 or lower.</p>
<p>I’m sure that many students with higher test scores than my daughter were rejected. That’s the point of my post – the test score is just one of many factors that come into play. </p>
<p>My d. had studied Russian and had spent a semester living abroad with a foreign exchange. That’s something that would make her application stand out, but not something that by itself would get her into any particular college. It was a factor that could be exploited to the extent that my daughter targeted applications towards colleges that might appreciate that factor of her background. So, for example, she expressed some interest in Washington U, but I discouraged her because I knew that Washington U. had shut down its Russian dept. when their last tenured Russian prof. retired – in contrast to Barnard/Columbia, which has very strong slavic language offerings as well as the Harriman Institute.</p>
<p>But I’m sure that your niece is more than a test score - she must also have had a GPA, an essay, LOR’s – and some set of EC’s or interests to talk about. </p>
<p>My point is that the ACT shouldn’t be a barrier to applying. It’s a weak spot in the application, but not an impossible barrier. (My d. had SEVERAL weak spots in her application). Judging from the screen name, MilitaryMom’s daughter might have an interesting background – she might have moved around a lot as a child or lived abroad if her father was stationed abroad. </p>
<p>The point is, each student has to assess their own strengths and consider their own interests – then look at schools where those strengths and interests might be a particular asset. The more “reachy” the school, the more it is important that the student’s particular strengths or background would be attractive to that school. </p>
<p>When kids post on CC asking their “chances” – I can’t tell which ones are going to get into the colleges they are applying to, but I can often tell which students are the most interesting or intriguing. It isn’t their test scores or the number of AP’s they have taken. For me, its when I read through their EC’s and something stands out as unusual, or they add a paragraph or two to their “chances” post that reveals something personal or a special interest that sets them apart. I’m sure the same thing that makes them stand out on a CC thread can also attract the notice of an application reader at a college – it doesn’t necessarily mean they will get in, but that’s probably got far more significance than all the numbers they have posted.</p>
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<p>Roughly 10% of Wesleyan students have between 500-599 on at least one of the SAT tests; a little over 20% of Wesleyan ACT-submitters have scores in the 24-29 range. </p>
<p>I realize that CC’ers tend to be fixated on the idea of a “hook” - but I remain in the camp of believing that students can create their own “hooks” by what they do along the way and how they present themselves on their application. </p>
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<p>There are a lot of kids with higher test scores who simply aren’t as good students. My d. chose not to submit SAT’s to colleges because she scored only 1200 – but she’s done really well in college. Based on the math, she’s done a lot better than many students who came in with much higher test scores.</p>
<p>I realize that when you are talking about high school GPA, then there are some very sharp kids who are also attending very rigorous high schools, but that’s why colleges like to see school profiles and look at class rank. Knowing where the student stands in relation to others gives them additional info. </p>
<p>I’d agree with you that Wesleyan is probably a reach for nightpwnsj00 – with her test scores, she does need an application that is particularly strong in other areas – but that doesn’t mean she shouldn’t apply. Obviously she has a good college admission strategy if she has already been admitted to 3 colleges – and it is smart for her to seek admission at test-optional Smith and Mt. Holyoke. </p>
<p>That’s all I’m trying to say to MilitaryMom. If the chart on this page - <a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACT_(test[/url])”>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACT_(test)</a> - is accurate, then a 28 ACT puts a student in the 92nd percentile. Outside of the test-obsessed CC world, that’s not all that bad.</p>
<p>Oh, thanks, calmom - I was just going to say that. A 28 <em>is</em> a great score “in the outside world”
[ACT</a> Score Information: National Ranks for Test Scores and Composite Score](<a href=“http://www.actstudent.org/scores/norms1.html]ACT”>http://www.actstudent.org/scores/norms1.html)
It’s in the 91st or 92nd percentile.</p>
<p>My D has excellent consistent grades in mostly honors/AP classes. WGPA around 3.6. Class rank 39/470. But, she is not a good test taker (or else even her gpa would be higher). ACT was 26. We didn’t even submit SATs (didn’t break 1150).</p>
<p>So far she is pleased with admitance results. In at two safeties (one with a substantial merit scholarship -good for the ego); in at two matches (one that she really likes); got a spring admit yesterday at a complete reach school that she would love to go to. Her stats clearly did not match the average they accept from our high school (as per Naviance), but she had great teacher recs, great essays (I thought so anyway) and is active in EC’s in a very all around way (sports, community service, religion, clubs). Very good for the confidence. Now I think she will get in to her other top two choices (just below the reach school she got into yesterday).</p>
<p>Remember that the people here on CC are not average. There are a lot of complete over-achievers and many are so disappointed with scores and grades that are clearly well above average. I’m all for driven kids (yay for them), but just remember where your D fits in the scheme of things among all graduating seniors (not on this board).</p>
<p>Apply to a range of schools and I think you will be pleasantly surprised.</p>
<p>I am very new here and wondering some abbreviations. I know D for daugher, S for son.
How about DS? I thought it meant daughters or daughter and son, but the member mentioned his son only. I totally confused. Can anyone give me some most common abbreviations in this forum? Thank you.</p>
<p>^^I think for this thread to be helpful, we’d have to reveal the schools we are talking about. I just think it’s a bit misleading to steer a kid with a 28 (equiv. SAT of 1300 or so I think?) to schools where that score is obviously going to put them in the lower 25%. I’ve known too many kids with that kind of profile and typically good suburban high school ec’s who were rejected at top 30 schools. Sure, anyone can apply and hope for the best, but some may choose to be more realistic. I think the women’s colleges are probably another story. Lots of profiles like that at those.</p>
<p>DS is darling son I think, at least that is how I use it. I have a DS who will probably be like the OP’s DD (but he is still a sophomore in hs so time will tell). I read through this thread looking for a list of schools to add to a hypothetical potential college list for my child…all that I could find here for a boy was Wesleyan and Conn. College. Can someone please compile a list here of good safety, match and reach schools for kids with high GPAs (assuming also high class rank) and low SAT/ACTs. Lets assume that these kids have ok recs, ECs
etc. but are not URMS, developmental admits or recruited athletes please.</p>
<p>^*Can someone please compile a list here of good safety, match and reach schools for kids with high GPAs (assuming also high class rank) and low SAT/ACTs. Lets assume that these kids have ok recs, ECs, etc. but are not URMS, developmental admits or recruited athletes please. *</p>
<p>You’re in Florida. Are you looking at any in-state schools? </p>
<p>When you say “low SATs” - how low are you talking about?</p>
<p>What likely major or career?</p>
<p>How much can you afford to contribute towards the education?</p>
<p>Small LACs only?</p>
<p>Yes, we are in Florida but my son is willing to go out of state (within one time zone). Cost is not a factor in our list. He would prefer mid to large size universities (not LAC’s) and is leaning toward a premed type of major (Biology, Neurobiology, chemistry…) Since my son is sophomore, he has yet to try the SAT’s but his first PSAT attempt was not good, which is why this thread caught my eye. If he did manage to somehow score adequately (above 2100) on the SAT), he would love to attend a school like Wash U, Emory, Vanderbilt type with UPenn as a dream but, I am not sure that he will (I am a realistic, not pessimistic mom). Assuming a score like the OP, but rule out all those female only schools, what would be a nice list (a nice wide net) for my son to start with?</p>
<p>Note: although it is very early in the process, he is currently ranked in the top 2% of his HS class of 850 kids.</p>
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<p>I agree. This is a very important point often missed when a college selection/admissions discussion disintegrates into a GPA versus SAT dogfight. Also like to add that even in the case of 4-of-5 versus 3-of-5, the degree of strength in the “strong” areas matters. I suppose a 3-of-5 Olympic athlete may be ahead of many 4-of-5 or even 5-of-5 candidates.</p>
<p>*He would prefer mid to large size universities (not LAC’s) and is leaning toward a premed type of major (Biology, Neurobiology, chemistry…) *</p>
<p>If he scores well on his SAT or ACT (have him take BOTH - some do better on the ACT), then…</p>
<p>Reaches…</p>
<p>Johns Hopkins
Duke
Vanderbilt
Georgetown
Wash U</p>
<p>Matches
Wake Forest
URochester
Boston U</p>
<p>Safety
St Louis U
U Dayton
Marquette
Miami U Oxford</p>
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<p>I agree 1000% percent with your holistic approach. However, the problem with so many SAT-as-gospel arguments is that they not only want to give a student credit for superior test scores, but if the test scores do not match the grades for a particular student they immediately want to discount the grades and probably every other accomplishment of that student.</p>
<p>I have not seen that type of reverence for any other portion of an applicants qualifications.</p>
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<p>And, BFF? That’s another head-scratcher.</p>
<p>BFF = Best Friend Forever</p>
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<p>Roughly one out of four students who end up attending competitive schools have scores in the bottom 25%. On the other hand, roughly one out of four students who end up attending competitive schools have scores in the top 25%. </p>
<p>I think that there IS a point at which the scores put as student out of contention, but obviously it is NOT the 25% mark. For the colleges that publish their common data sets, there is clearly a level at which no students are ever admitted. I’ve also noticed that there generally is a level reported where there is a significant fall off- down to 1 or 2%. </p>
<p>No one is saying that a student should count on being admitted to a school where their test scores are relatively weak – that is a factor that makes the school a “reach” rather than a “safety”. </p>
<p>But obviously students can and do get admitted with scores in bottom 25%. The numbers pretty much speak for themselves. </p>
<p>In this case we are looking at a dichotomy: GPA higher than test scores. Obviously the college will also look at the setting for that GPA – school profile, the student’s class rank, the courses taken, what teachers say about the student, etc. One kid’s 4.0 might not be the same as another, depending on the school environment and the kid’s overall attitude. But it is something the colleges will take seriously.</p>
<p>I’d note that the quality of the high school is something also taken into account when colleges look at standardized test scores – they don’t expect some kid coming out of a lower performing public school to have the same test scores as a kid coming from years of private, prep school education. They know that the standardized test scores are not a measure of raw potential, but are very much influenced by the educational environment the student has been in. So I don’t think that every 28 ACT or 1300 SAT is viewed through the same lens.</p>
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That’s what I notice as well. If the kid has very high test scores and a weak GPA, then the test-lovers essentially excuse the weak GPA as meaning the high school must be particularly rigorous. Of course, colleges have more data to make the determination: the high school profile, some indication of class rank, LOR’s, and a record of what courses the student has actually taken.</p>
<p>I think it is simply because the test score is the only item that can be easily quantified, and for which we have readily available statistical information. Added to that is a misunderstanding of the concept of a “median”, coupled with the CC myth that one has to be in the top 75%, or at least top half, of the score range to get in (like Lake Wobegon, where all the students are above average) – and we again and again see students who have scores that clearly are within range for a school being told that their scores are not good enough and they should not apply. </p>
<p>I was told the same thing by a well known author of books on college admissions about my daughter – that she shouldn’t even bother applying to Barnard with an SAT below 1400. But I could see at a glance that such a statement wasn’t true – if it was, I’d expect to see the mid-50% score range for each test being skewed much higher. </p>
<p>I’d also note that the idea of a mid-50% score range also seems to be misconstrued. I can see its value as a tool to roughly assess whether a school fits into the category of reach or match or safety – and it is probably a very useful predictor of the likelihood of getting merit money at schools that offer it – but it only gives you information about HALF of the admitted students. And a “median” can be very different than an “average” – there is room potentially for a very long tail in the lower 25%, which is why it makes some sense to look for more data as to score ranges in that area.</p>
<p>I can also add my dd into this thread. SHe is a junior with a weighted gpa of 4.3. She is in the top 20% of her class. She just took the SAT and will take the ACT next week so we have no scores yet but I don’t expect much since she only scored better than 74% of other juniors on the psat. She is looking to get into a pre-pharm program. She is extremely involved in band, SADD, and Key Club. She has taken all honors classes but won’t take any AP until next year and those will be AP english and AP calculus. We are looking at in-state schools (OH) or schools that will give good merit aid (private and out of state). I know she will get good letters of recommendation. Does anyone have any ideas for what will happen for her in the college admission process? Any schools to suggest?</p>