<p>Just wondering, how do adcom's determine this? I know some schools only offer ~5-6 AP classes, while others offer 20. </p>
<p>For example, let's say we have Johnny and Sally. If they have equal stats and 4.0 UW GPA's, yet Johnny took 15 AP classes in a school that offers 20 while Sally took 2 in a school that offers 2, would Sally have more course rigor than Johnny (as she took 100% of the school's AP classes while Johnny only took 75%)? </p>
<p>So the bottom line is: how do adcom's judge course rigor? (Additionally, would Johnny have an advantage in admissions because of such a demanding schedule?)</p>
<p>Adcoms want to see if you are taking the most rigorous schedule that you can handle. They tend to look down on not taking any APs if your school offers several but if your school offers few, they don’t expect you to take the same amount as someone whose school offers 20+.</p>
<p>Presumably, most admissions officers are fair and reasonable people. How would a fair and reasonable person respond to the problem that you pose?</p>
<p>Assuming you’re a reasonable person, you will probably arrive at the same conclusion as my hypothetical admissions officer and imemmons did. </p>
<p>Is there a different question that you’re trying to ask or are you seeking simply to assure yourself that you or someone you know will get a fair shake?</p>
<p>Either you take 6-8 Ap’s (above that: diminishing returns with Adcoms. Really. If you’re THAT advanced and driven, take dual enrollment classes to show your mettle in a real college classroom.) Or your school doesn’t offer 6, so there you’re supposed to take them all.
In your example, both would be considered to be absolutely equal so other factors would come in such as overcoming adversity, showing creativity or drive, having to work 20hours a week to help pay rent, volunteering several hours a week and getting a recommendation from your supervisor and writing your essay about it, being all-State in a sport that needs players, being first tuba when the college orchestra needs a tuba player, etc.
Note that strictly speaking, since APs are weighted more than non APs, the student with only 2 APs earned more A’s than the other student, but the other student had a more rigorous curriculum that prepares him/her better for college, so it would be a toss up at holistic schools. Class rank would probably factor in, or school reputation if it’s a high performing, competitive school (such schools also have “relationships” between colleges’ admissions and guidance counselors.)
Your example is a fallacy though because if you have two 4.0’s with the most rigourous curriculum available, BOTH are in – or, if the school is super competitive, the decision is NOT based on this, it’s just what is needed to make the cut off.</p>
<p>It can also depend on which 6-8 APs you take if you are at a school offering lots of APs.</p>
<p>Which do you think looks more impressive in terms of AP courses:</p>
<ul>
<li><p>English literature, calculus BC, physics C (both), US history, art history, foreign language (non-heritage)</p></li>
<li><p>psychology, statistics, physics 1, human geography, world history, economics (one of them)</p></li>
</ul>
<p>For frosh admissions to the most selective schools that review holistically, the increased rigor of the first set is likely to be favored over the second set. Of course, that may not necessarily be the case for other frosh admissions process (e.g. admit-by-GPA-and-test-score-formula).</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Physics and math are liberal arts. In any case, it is generally considered favorable to be reasonably strong in all subjects in high school. Would you say that taking AP English literature is pointless for a physics or math major?</p>
<p>Well, there’s a difference between taking English AP’s for a STEM major and taking Calculus for a future Humanities major. Engineering and math require Freshman composition, but Humanities majors aren’t required to take Calculus, simply because you don’t need calculus to be well-educated whereas not knowing English other than for utilitarian purposes is not to be well-educated.</p>
<p>I think the strength of your AP program depends on what you plan on doing: AP English Lang, AP English Lit, AP Human Geography, all 3 AP history (Euro, World, US), Art History, and Foreign Language (non heritage) would be well-regarded for someone intending to major in history, foreign language, international relations, or in Cultural Area studies (East Asian Studies, Africana Studies, etc.) However such choices for a future STEM major, if AP Calc, Physics, and Chemistry are offered, would make one wonder whether the applicant really is committed to math/science.
However, for a school that offers 14-20 AP classes, really, taking 6-8 of them is fine - I still remember that student here on CC who thought he’d be considered badly because he’d taken 10 AP’s whereas his classmates took 12 or 15, and how he cried it was so incredibly unfair that his counselor may consider his schedule not very rigorous… If a student is passionate about a subject or has reached 8 AP’s (or 10, really, if you want to push it), they shouldn’t just keep on piling up the AP’s but rather take more advanced classes in this subject at the local community college (if available).</p>
<p>I think D’s HS offers 22 APs and she took 10, most pretty hard core. I would be really hard pressed to come up with more than 1 or 2 more that she would be interested in and/or she should take. How any does more is pretty much beyond me. Switching to dual enrollment or CC classes seems like a viable option once you pass the 8-10 AP level, and possibly even before that if you don’t have really good teachers teaching the APs.</p>
<p>Thank you all for your input. MYOS, I’m the former; I’ll graduate with 15 AP tests under my belt (most at a school where the norm is 4-6). The main question is how each student would be considered. (i.e. School A offers 2, School B offers 20, Student A | School A takes both, Student B | School B takes 15/20; both students are considered _______.)<br>
Regarding why I chose AP classes over dual enrollment has to deal with two of the things you mentioned. I work(ed) 20 hours a week and was on the varsity swim team (practice times/meet times destroy schedules). To put it bluntly, my main thought when developing the hypothetical was whether or not my all-nighters working for these AP classes are “worth it” to adcoms when some of my friends take partial schedules, no AP’s, etc. </p>
<p>About which AP courses reflect which strengths, my input is that we should take AP classes reflecting our interests, and that we should later major in and work in our field of interest. I’ll have taken all of the social studies AP classes offered by the CB because I love social studies/international relations; however, I’ve also taken AP classes not related to the field so that I can look at problems through multiple lenses. I know many universities (Brown, JHU, CMU) are starting to focus on interdisciplinary study for certain programs, etc etc.</p>
<p>^yep, as MrMom said.
6-8 should be your goal, 10 if you want to push it
After that it becomes “piling up AP’s” and you’d be better served with dual enrollment.
You can always write in the Additional Info section that you hoped to take Dual enrollment classes but couldn’t due to work obligations as well as swim team schedule conflicts.</p>
<p>MYOS, I have to differ with you. Without calculus I would find it hard to be well-educated. Well educated has to include education in fields outside of one’s expertise. There’s a lot of science and social science that a well-educated person should know that I wouldn’t understand without having taken college calculus. Forget “well educated” for a moment–I couldn’t even carry on a conversation with my children without having taken calculus. Hpw can I say I’m well educated if my 17yo is better educated than I am?</p>
<p>I really am not sure how you couldn’t carry a conversation without calculus. In my view, there’s a difference between understanding the effects and impacts of math in our world and life (which, I agree, is part of what being well-educated means) and understanding a highly specialized branch of mathematics very, very few people understand, let alone master enough to use in conversation. In addition, understanding statistics really matters more than understanding calculus. Unless what I call “Calculus” and what you call “calculus” are two different things.</p>
<p>The concepts behind a Calc I course, change over time (derivatives) and accumulation over time (integrals), plus how they are used in everyday life, Physics-Mechanics, should be in the repertoire of any liberally educated person, just as English, history, and art are, but unfortunately, they aren’t. </p>
<p>Some people have no trouble indicating they are innumerate, making it a status symbol, but no one admits to being illiterate.</p>
<p>See, understanding the idea of change over time and accumulation over time is one thing, calculating them is something entirely different. That’s what I meant: the contents of “math for every day living” and “science to understand the world” SHOULD be part of what any liberally educated person knows (or at least “has taken”, since most people remember very little from their actual college courses :p). This is different from calculus or college-level physics (“real” college-level physics, designed as entry-level background courses/weed out courses for STEM majors, not the kind cited above, which focuses on every day life.)
I have the same expectation for all subjects - I would expect students to have taken an “art appreciation” class, but I would not expect them to be able to analyze a Beethoven Symphony score. </p>
<p>And to be clear, as this is a serious problem: not understanding calculus is NOT the same thing as being innumerate.
There are problems with innumeracy and that means: not understanding quantity, ratios, progressions, categorization, patterns, symetry and similarity, plus the basics of adding/subtracting/multiplying/dividing.<br>
Re: people who have “no trouble” indicating they are innumerate" - People may state they “don’t get it” more easily than they admit to being illiterate, but few do, in part because few realize they have a problem they need to correct, unlike illiteracy (they may totally confuse ratios and never realize it, whereas totally confusing letters and being unable to read more than a word or two at a time, such as is necessary to understand a sentence, blocks you very quickly in every day life and requires consistent strategies). Yes some people can be proud to be “bad at math”, but there are others who are proud of “hating reading”, who find art or literature pointless, etc. There are philistines for every area of knowledge. Honestly, nowadays, I think there’s more respect for math than for many other fields and isn’t it 15 years since there was that controversy about a doll that pretended not to like math?</p>
<p>I think we’re on the same wavelength, but when we took college tours this year, you’d be surprised how many schools keet saying “We don’t have distribution requirements, if you hate math or science, you never have to take another math or science class again!”. They never said you never had to take another English or history class. And lord knows, diversity classes are never exempt - those are mandatory.</p>
<p>I particularly loved the campus tour guide who wanted to be an environmental activist, but didn’t want/have to take any science classes. That campus got scratched.</p>
<p>Just a guess: Anecdotal evidence tends to show that kids who plan to major in art/humanities and dislike science tend to feel fear toward math&science, whereas kids who plan to major in STEM and dislike English/history tend to feel spite toward the humanities. So the tour guide’s presentation would aim at reassuring the potentially fearful Humanities kids, while not mentioning anything would suffice for the prospective potentially spiteful stem majors, and lull both enough that they would apply? Could also be their idea that 17 year olds want to hear college = summer camp, “come here, you’ll have fun all the time although cough cough we’re very serious too but really come here you’ll never do anything uncool or boring or difficult, whatever we imagine that’d be for you.” :)</p>
<p>Still surprising how often “no math/science” would be extolled, indeed.
On the other hand, I wonder how some campus tour guides are trained… :p</p>
<p>I do think diversity classes are important, especially for kids who don’t think they should learn about it or who live in a very homogeneous environment. I think it’s a better alternative to “non-white people never achieved anything important except for MLK” , “I don’t get why women complain, I mean we let them work now”, “Why should we fund schools for poor people, I mean, they’re poor because they’re stupid, so why waste our money on schools for them?” or “Is Africa a big country and do you have lions near your house” (I actually heard the last one at a well-known public university; as for the others: smart freshmen earnestly contributing to discussions. Just a handful of their ideas, certainly not the full archives. :p) Will diversity-focused classes help them understand the concept and its importance for our nation? Well, at least we tried. :)</p>
