High school math acceleration thread

Parents Forum
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I think the getting noticed part is variable. My gifted kid would score in the 99th percentile nationally in math, and that would put him at around the 76th percentile locally. If he had a bad day and scored in the 97th or 98th percentile, he was barely above the 50th percentile locally. In k-3, he was surrounded by kids who had been doing Khan Academy and tutoring since preschool. He was not placed in the accelerated math in 4th grade (based on the 3rd grade tests), was identified as gifted that year, but because he missed the 4th grade acceleration, his options became summer school only.

So in hindsight, I do wish we had given him the early supplementation, knowing what I know now about the realities of our district and how a gifted kid without the early acceleration can be somewhat camouflaged in second and third grade among gifted peers who have had the outside work/exposure. He is (rightfully) concerned that this will hold him back within his areas of interest. But we don’t see a good solution because he doesn’t want (and we agree) to rush through any of the high school level maths.

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142

Yes, thank you. This feels very on point to where we are.

The good news is that I don’t think my kids would be looking at top 20-25 schools anyway, so I’m hoping that any STEM major they choose, they can find a school that will accept them into a challenging program with their all As in all APs/honors, even if they only go to Calc and Physics 2. :crossed_fingers:

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For what it is worth, even at MIT, plenty of frosh have not advanced beyond single variable calculus while in high school. For fall 2021 according to Fall 2022 Course 18: Mathematics (Archive) (number of recitations being a proxy of enrollment), the enrollment shows lots of students in single variable calculus or in the next course beyond single variable calculus (as opposed to more than one course beyond):

Recitations Subject Description
10 18.01 Calculus (covers what is commonly a year of single variable calculus or BC in one semester)
16 18.01A / 18.02A Calculus and part of multivariable calculus for those with 5 on AB or BC, or MIT placement test
9 18.02 Multivariable calculus for those with MIT placement test
2 18.022 Multivariable calculus (more theoretical) for those with MIT placement test

In other words, many students at MIT are starting in math that suggest that they were on a math track no higher than +1 in high school.

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144

Might be 100% correct. But for many students, if courses are not offered so kids go off and do their own thing. Can be math circles, teams, contests, related subjects or even as simple as Khan academy. Most aren’t going to be on a transcript ( maybe math team will be). We did this with our kids for a long, long time. We also know kids who stayed in high school. Yet, we know they do lots of mathy things but would end up at Calc by end of 12th grade.
I don’t think many schools at all offer it in house. Most post Calc HS kids are going to college/online to get the additional courses.

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And it’s pervasive in the public school systems for lots of reasons. SLOOWWW math that repeats endlessly the same concepts for years until kids get entirely bored again and again. Common core, don’t even get me started
and there was something else, I’ve forgotten the name and the poor thinking behind it.

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@ucbalumnus What is unclear to me is whether you are trying to reassure kids that not advancing is ok because even at MIT many kids come in “un-advanced”, or whether you are saying you shouldn’t bother advancing because it is a waste of time.

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What I am saying is that students and parents need not feel like they need to advance as much as possible for the sake of advancing as much as possible, rather than taking math at a level or track most suitable for the student’s academic strength and interest, and that students who are “only” on the +1 math track should not feel that they have no chance of getting into college or a math-heavy major.

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I agree that you should be guided by your passion where possible. Because practically speaking the resulting effort will be more sustained. Also, why not enjoy what you do? And may as well do what you enjoy
 But I am not sure I have the locus standi to question a kid/family about advancing because they want to get into MIT or some other high ranked school. We make a fetish about passion. Passion and hard work (with exogenous goals) can be mutually reinforcing, and the hard work in a field can also build passion. And I disagree that you can get into a high ranked school with some minimally required curriculum. Frankly if MIT (or some other school) felt that you come from a not poor family, or not an URM, they hold you to exceptionally high standards in terms of what they expect. It is not even funny.

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Yes and no. For gifted kids like any kids they need to be learning. Something that is repeated too many times or goes too slowly can have effects on not only their interest level but also their long term abilities. We are asking kids to sit through years of this. In most cases, 8-9 years from K-8. We then give these kids some differentiation via “advanced” courses which mean different things in different schools. Then we stop at Calc. But we then allow them to go as deep as they want in college based on their skills.
I see this as a very broken system. Would be happy to read about

But I’ve never seen a thing which supports not providing appropriate education at various levels. This includes support systems for those who struggle.

BTW, my kids were the same. They learned to read from being read to, they read early and they did mathy things on their own at a young age. No prompting but they did have access to loads of books and toys that some kids don’t. Mine were bored to tears in school. IMO, kids do need acceleration or support so that they can keep learning. Not to fit into a mold but to keep their brains working.

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150

And I’ve always felt very uncomfortable about the idea that some kids are gifted. Well perhaps Einstein was gifted. Short of that I always thought that it was 98% perspiration and 2% inspiration. And I was always consistent in saying this to the kids.

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I was only saying acceleration and formal math drilling BEFORE kindergarten is not needed. I completely agree with you that multiple years of elementary school should not be at a pace too slow for gifted kids. I agree with differentiation and we picked a school that has the “average” kid at the 85%ile and still pulls kids out for supplemental reading and math when those kids are well above the group, starting in 2nd. The research I was referring to was that that shows starting formal reading and math drills before kindergarten does not lead to an increase in whatever giftedness the kid has. I agree that not doing any differentiation for years and years is problematic. IMO, there is both a “too early” and a “too late” for supplemental learning/acceleration/etc.

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If college admission to schools like MIT is the goal, having taken college level math courses (or self-studied them) doesn’t help. Winning medals in IMO, IPhO, etc. will, but very very few are in that category. STEM schools like Caltech or Harvey Mudd requires calculus because their smaller class sizes don’t allow them to offer separate sections/recitations to students with no prior calculus exposure.

153

The usual K-6 model in the US where all subjects are taught by non-subject-specialist teachers is likely part of why K-6 instruction in math and some other subjects does not advance as quickly as students are likely to be capable of (or may not exist at all in many K-6 schools, such as foreign languages).

Also, K-6 schools tend to be smaller than middle and high schools, so serving academic outliers may be more difficult to do when there are few of them.

It may be necessary to change this model of K-6 education in order to make significant improvements where this type of thing is a problem.

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It is not 0/1. There is a wide spectrum. We understand intimately how all this works.

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155

Yes, it’s a wide spectrum, but these tippy top schools aren’t impressed by applicants who have taken advanced college-level math courses. Take Caltech, for example. It doesn’t believe, rightly or wrongly, any course taken elsewhere is up to its standard. It has 20+ professors on its admissions committee to read and scrutinize academically promising applications and help make the selections. This year they together selected 432 applicants in two rounds (out of at least 13k applicants if the number of applications remained the same as last year).

156

We understand all that. This is not new news. Acceleration is a tool to be used appropriately, so that you gain skills early in your HS career so that you have the time and skills to do something interesting towards the end of your HS career that a) you find interesting and fulfilling, and b) the college of your choice finds interesting. You need to present a holistic package that intrigues them, amongst the 14k or 40k applications – some applications look distinctly different from the rest in more ways than one. One aims to look different. The acceleration is a mere tool to achieve something more. Not just in STEM.

In practice the kid does whatever he wants (in our case I told the kid five things – a) get 9 hours of sleep, b) don’t lose interest in things, c) don’t try to get a 100; 97 is good enough – and even if it is not 97, don’t stress it, d) have a humanities footprint, and e) this country values people who do rather than people who know – so in your 4 years at HS, show a bias for action). Once this general guidance is in place, they do their thing. And you help them package it :-).

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5+ and rejected at MIT so there is that.

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158

What is considered acceleration here in the US is really just getting up to speed with the rest of the world.

That still leaves out that pesky problem of depth.

American schools’ math curriculum is woefully inadequate, and simply going over it quicker is not doing anyone any favors.

This excellent conversation with Bill Schmidt, director of the Education Policy Center at Michigan State University, is over 10 years old, and things have not gotten any better.

""In the United States, I don’t think we are getting a particularly good math and science education. What we know from the international studies is that other countries have much higher demands on their students, especially during the middle grades – grades six, seven and eight. In those countries, they study algebra, geometry, physics and chemistry. In this country, our kids, most of them at least, are still studying basic arithmetic and they’re doing very elementary, descriptive science; I call it ‘rocks and body parts.’

"In both mathematics and science, U.S. students’ performance ranges anywhere from simply mediocre to extraordinarily poor. And that is true in both our national tests as well as our international tests.

“One international study of 12th-graders found that for those students in mathematics who were at the highest level – the kids who take calculus, AP calculus or regular college-level calculus – essentially came near the bottom of the international distribution against their peers. In science and physics, we were dead last. So even those students who we think of as our absolute best are not competitive internationally.”"

That ‘rocks and body parts’ smack has been our family’s favorite over our kids’ entire school careers.

If you really care about getting your kids to learn math, there is only one set of textbook series in this country that is world class: AoPS.

They will have to study it on their own time though.

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159

Sorry to hear that. Wish your student the best !

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I am not as pessimistic. I grew up with the curriculum at a non us school, seen the best students that country produces, and my son had the opportunity to spend a few days at a well regarded school in China. Our top 10% of kids more than hold their own against their top 10%. Indeed we do many things better than them, in terms of spirit of enquiry etc. the big difference is that we don’t force the lower deciles quite as hard in math and the sciences as these other countries do. Indeed we spend more time on languages and the humanities that has its own benefits. Our college education is better than their college education. It eventually works out. This is off topic here I think. So I don’t want to go into any depth.

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