<p>I posted this on the parents forum and it was suggested that I also do so over here. Any advice would be much appreciated.</p>
<p>My Precious Baby King, age almost 13, will be applying to high schools this fall!!?? Heaven help me. He is as serious about his music as I've known a kid his age to be who isn't a prodigy. Which means we are going to be prioritizing his high school application list based on that. (We are in NYC and he gets to make a list of 12 choices and must attend the highest school on his list which "matches" him.) There are two music programs in our community and I'm at a drooling, babbling loss as to how one would prioritize them, so I'm here to ask for advice. The first program is the "hot" program in our community, it's based on an audition and they only take about 40 kids across all instruments and voice. This program has every kind of ensemble one would want, but does not offer theory classes or IB/AP music. The other program isn't as hot (partly because - in my opinion - it's in a more diverse school). Admission to that program is theoretically random, but it has excellent partnerships with cultural groups in NYC, and offers both IB and AP music for students inclined to take them. I'm not sure (I have no musical ability, training, experience or aptitude) how important something like those IB/AP classes would be, or if being in the small group of auditioned-in kids would be better, or what. My understanding is that anyone can be in the program at the second school, but that the students choose their level and path as they go through, so the theory and top-level performing students tend to be pretty motivated. Thoughts, anyone?</p>
<p>I don’t think that the lack of AP/IB music courses means anything. Many schools have wonderful high-level music programs without having any AP or IB music.</p>
<p>However, if the exclusive school has no AP/IB courses at all in any subject and the random-admission school does have several AP/IB courses in non-music subjects, then it is possible that the overall academic level at the second school is higher. Check into the academics: at the high school level, it is important for all students, including students who intend to major in music, to have a challenging academic environment. (I realize that AP/IB can be overdone and can interfere with a child’s musical development if parents allow it to get out of hand and allow/push their children to take too many AP courses. I also realize that it is quite possible to have a rigorous challenging academic environment with no AP/IB–most of the schools in my city have no AP/IB and they would be considered very strong by US standards–the regular classes are as challenging or more challenging than AP classes.)</p>
<p>Taking only 40 students per year across all instruments and voices suggests that the program will be fairly small; that would mean fewer than 160 students in the entire program (4X40 with attrition) so maybe two choirs and two bands or one band and one orchestra assuming that a number of students participate in both instrumental and vocal ensembles: does it have bands and choirs at a variety of levels that will allow your child to advance from challenging grade-9-level repertoire to repertoire that is intense for a senior as Precious Baby King progresses? Or is there just one band fits all sizes; freshman, no matter how talented, usually are a long ways from seniors in terms of skill level, if skills are being developed during the four years at this school.</p>
<p>The lack of any instruction in theory does bother me a bit; perhaps the elite school integrates theory instruction into their music classes. If theory is integrated in a serious way, then I wouldn’t have a problem. Check into this. </p>
<p>Without more information about the two schools, I don’t think that anyone can give definitive advice. </p>
<p>Personally my non-definitive advice is (and without knowing the whole picture, I could be dead wrong): I lean to the second school which sounds like it has more opportunities and will probably have high-level ensembles. </p>
<p>Ask your child’s school music teacher(s) which school they would suggest. </p>
<p>If possible, get to a fall concert at both schools–you may hear a substantial difference in the level of music, but even if you do not, you may feel a big difference in climate: do the students appear to be engaged in their music? do they appear to be enjoying making music?</p>
<p>Also, honestly, if your son is planning to go onto a conservatory, it may not make much difference which high school he attends. The difference will be his private teacher and the precollege music program (I mean outside of high school), if any. You will find that many kids from these music magnet schools also attend precollege programs. If your son isn’t going to go the conservatory route, it might make sense to go to the second “lottery” program, where he can stand out more and take higher level academics. In the end, your best bet might be talking to local families and finding out what their experiences were in these particular programs. Everything looks so much different on paper than it does when you finally get there.</p>
<p>I can’t thank you enough for your advice and suggestions. Being a non-music person myself, I have no idea what questions to ask at the open houses. Both schools have a lot of AP classes – as many as any kid could possibly want, and both have bands, orchestras, jazz bands, and smaller ensembles. The first school with the selective program has a super-duper musical theater program which gets a ton of press and accolades. Their productions are absolutely amazing. The thing is that my son could take or leave musical theater. He played in his middle school magnet production this year as a favor to the music director, but it wasn’t something he would have sought out and, while he enjoyed it, he is far more exicted by band, orchestra and particularly jazz band. The second school has a basic school play and its program leans heavily toward jazz, which my son loves. He’s plays sax and guitar, but clarinet is his first instrument and he is spending the summer studying Benny Goodman and his music (his choice, not mine, and I just smile and nod because I have no idea what he is talking about). His music teacher has significant connections at both schools, as well as an excellent private program, so he thinks we could just apply to either school and let the chips fall. I wonder, and this is probably silly, whether affinity for the focus of the school’s program matters – musical theater versus jazz. You’ve given me some great questions to ask and I’m beyond grateful.</p>
I don’t know if he is headed that way, he’s only 12, but the high school application process here is a six-month nightmare. He loves music and I think being challenged and excited musically would keep him on the right path, which is my goal at this point. We’ll consider college a couple of years from now. God willing.</p>
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I’m kind of tiptoeing around this, but the problem with that is that many of the families with kids who will be applying this year simply won’t consider the more diverse school for reasons having nothing to do with academics or music. So we get a lot of “you would let him travel there?” and, of course, we would because we let our daughter travel there and she had the experience of a lifetime.</p>
<p>I hadn’t thought of him being a standout at the second program. That would likely be the case. Hmmmm.</p>
<p>Wow, I obviously live in a different world. In my world there is no application to high school, you just send your kid to the public high school that he is automatically assigned to. I guess some people have to make tougher choices.</p>
<p>Regardless, there was no theory classes at my son’s school but he did learn a little theory in band and orchistra classes and with his private teacher.</p>
<p>NYC has a number of different public schools that range from traditional public schools where you basically go, to magnet schools (that usually feature a theme of some sort, but usually are by lottery or general admission) and charter schools (lottery), and then there are the elite high schools you have to take an admissions test and apply to to get into (schools like Bronx Science, Stuyvesent,number of others) , plus they also have a high school run by Bard College that allows kids to come out in 4 years with their High School diploma and a associates degree and of course the famous/infamous high school of performing arts (these days called the Laguardia School) made famous in the movie “Fame” that is auditioned for performing arts. </p>
<p>From the description of the schools, it sounds like either one would work for the student academically, academics are important because even if your son decides to major in music, he might end up at a program in a university/lac where academics are used in admissions. The different I would guess between the two, based on your limited description, is that the first one is more music oriented with the kids mostly being into music and the second one is more general. If the second school is oriented towards jazz, that might fit him better if the first school is oriented towards musical theater (obviously, I don’t know, wouldn’t even if I knew what the school was).</p>
<p>One recommendation I have if he is serious about jazz and is at a high enough level, he may want to audition for the Manhattan School of Music’s pre college jazz program, it is absolutely fantastic (Mannes’ program includes jazz ensembles, but not sure if those are electives or a curricula in itself as MSM’s is), I have heard those kids perform, it is a big wow and if he loves jazz it would probably be hog heaven for him. I don’t know the details of their jazz program, but usually those programs include ensemble work of all sorts, plus courses in theory and such, which would supplement (and probably blow out) anything he does in his regular school.</p>
Nowadays you don’t even have a guaranteed spot in your zoned school if you don’t apply for it. Which is how they end up with more than 10,000 eighth graders with no placement every year. The whole thing is ludicrous!</p>
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Thank you so much for the recommendation!! I’m going to look into that.</p>
<p>zoosermom, I’m a little familiar with magnet schools because my city also has a magnet school system It’s not as stressful as NY but it’s pretty stressful… that’s why I was suggesting you talk to other parents, but I meant parents whose kids already have experience with the two schools you are considering, not the parents who fear travel to other parts of the city. I’m curious what happens with the 10,000 eighth graders who don’t get placed-- they are guaranteed an education, so what happens to them?</p>
<p>My opinion on the musical theatre focus vs. jazz focus: While students usually love musical theatre productions (they are tons of fun), I believe that an instrumentalist will generally grow more and learn more in a jazz-focused program. </p>
<p>Musical theatre is incredibly time-consuming both in terms of the rehearsal and in terms of the performance schedule. A student will usually learn a lot more by spending 100 hours playing in a jazz band/ensem than they will by spending 100 hours playing in a musical theatre pit orchestra. </p>
<p>While every good high school instrumentalist can learn a lot about the music world by playing in a pit orchestra for a production, I think that the returns on learning diminish considerably for the second and subsequent productions.</p>
<p>I agree with glassharmonica that the calibre of the music program in the high school will often not have a huge bearing on the chances of acceptance to a high level music school. It sounds like both of your choices are good. Just be sure that you son has an excellent private teacher who is challenging him and who regularly prepares high school students for whatever post-secondary goals your son might have now (and yes, it is very early for a child to have such goals). </p>
<p>While on the one hand, I envy the choices that you have in NYC, I don’t envy having to go through the whole agonizing process.</p>
They go into a second round of admissions and will receive a placement by the last week of June, but it’s not guaranteed to be in their home borough because the placement is decided among whatever school have spots left.</p>
<p>Violindad, thank you for the excellent information. I’m not familiar enough to understand the real distinction between musical theater and other ensembles, but I do know that there were aspects of the musical theater experience this year that really annoyed him. He’s one of those people who always wants to be moving forward and doing more and finding out what’s next. He found that there were so many competing interests in the production that it really slowed down his musical progress. </p>
<p>I am very, very grateful for all of you who have taken the time to advise me.</p>
<p>The AP/IB music classes won’t make that much difference.</p>
<p>Since both schools have AP classes, then academics will be fine at either one (though I am not assuming your son will want to take a lot of them, depending on his music activities and interest level as he develops in high school). Does he like academics?</p>
<p>Sounds like the school with jazz versus musical theater is a better fit, plus, his sister went there and had a good experience, so it is a “known.” But visiting and asking questions will confirm whether the first school’s musical theater accolades mean a lesser jazz program, or not.</p>
<p>I think that it is usually not the school music program that makes much difference with future admissions to music and other schools (or to development as a musician). I’m sure there are exceptions (like Walnut Hill, maybe La Guardia, etc.). A lot of kids who love music and work hard at it end up at a preparatory program, where they may study theory, and play in ensembles. And they take private lessons and practice outside of school too.</p>
<p>In NYC, there is Juilliard, Mannes, and Manhattan, that I know of. Haven’t heard much about Mannes’ program, but have met people really happy with the other two.</p>
<p>Does your son play any classical music? Has he been playing in a band mainly? Is his teacher mainly a jazz teacher? </p>
<p>We had only one choice in schools: a local high school that is of fairly poor quality. Bottom line is that kids did well and are happy where they are anyway (one a musician, who did do a conservatory prep program). So honestly, despite the stress of choosing, you probably can’t go terribly wrong!</p>
He does play classical music along with the jazz and currently he is on orders from his older sister to play Disney movie music. Since she is not one with whom he will fight, we’re hearing a lot of Beauty and the Beast around our house. Heaven help me. He plays in a community youth band and also the school’s after school jazz band (sax for that) and was also in the pit for his school’s production, which was another after-school thing.</p>
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I really needed to hear that! I’m a Libra and when confronted with two roughly equal choices my brain melts.</p>
<p>I agree with the others, it sounds like the two schools you are talking about are equally as good in terms of academics, so it probably would work out no matter what you did. Did your S think about applying to Laguardia High?</p>
<p>He thought about applying to LaGuardia, but in light of his extreme flakiness, my husband and I don’t think he would be ready to make that commute in his freshman year. We may allow him to audition for sophomore year, though, depending on his maturity level.</p>
<p>Musicprnt, thanks for the explaination. I had no idea that anyone had a choice of schools like that aside from private schools. Even with private schools their are only four or five in our county and none of them are magnet schools.</p>
<p>That said, our state does have magnet schools, but only two for arts, and neither of them are within a reasonable distance, so we never not for one second considered them. I guess having a choice of schools is a huge benefit of living in a large city that I never considered.</p>
<p>Zoosermom, 10,000 8th graders is more than all the students in all of the grades in our school district - I think we have around 7,000.</p>
<p>Where we live it is similar to where you live, you basically have the local schools or private schools, there aren’t any magnet or charter schools to speak of. In the burbs where i live most kids go to the local schools or maybe a regional high school, other then the few that send their kids to prep school or maybe a parochial school (even smaller number), primarily because the schools are decent. </p>
<p>The irony is that while NYC, like many large cities, has schools in the inner city that are dismal,sadly far too many, it also offers schools available few other places. More importantly, in terms of grade and middle schoosl, NYC has programs for the gifted and talented that basically exist few other places, in the burbs where I live the few programs they have are a joke, and have probably gotten axed along with music and arts programs. The philosophy in most of the districts is pretty much teaching to the middle…and forget specialized programs for arts, isn’t going to happen. Part of the reason NYC can do that is the scale of the system, in NJ there are something like 636 school districts (basically each town) in a relatively small state, and as a result, no one has the scale to be able to offer much outside the norm.</p>