History of Admission at HYP - New Yorker Article

Parents Forum
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Why, then, should I pay to send my child to an elite school when he or she could go to state university for far less or to a less elite private school with substantial merit aid?

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<p>That's easy for you to ask. Your screen name is "In Virginia". I'd ask the same question with in-state tuition at UVa or W&M on the table.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, not all of us have top shelf public universities as options in our home states. Ask the same question comparing out-of-state tuition at UVa to an "elite private college" and the "value per dollar" tables may turn.</p>

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<p>Interesteddad, I understand the point you are making in your reply, but I intended my question to be more general - besides prestige, what makes an education at an elite school worth it? I had persuaded myself that the motivated peer argument, if nothing else, was a good reason - but does that change outcomes? For example, the tables on PhDs per graduate that you cite - doesn't the Krueger and Dale data suggest that a student who would be admitted to an elite school is just as likely to end up with a PhD attending any state u? or at least after attending the flagship state u? The per capita PhD production is just much less. Can one refute the seeming point of the New Yorker article that while the elite school needs the talented student to "be the elite school," the talented student doesn't need the elite school to be as successful?</p>

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<p>Someone needs to replicate the Krueger and Dale study a few more times before I will fully believe its conclusion. The study's authors themselves point out that their general conclusion does NOT fully apply to students from poor families, who do gain some advantage by going to the most elite schools they can get admitted to.</p>

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<p>I'm probably the wrong person to ask. I don't believe that attending an "elite" private college is necessary to be successful in life.</p>

<p>I also don't put much stock in "outcome driven" college selection. If I did, I'd probably recommend trade schools.</p>

<p>To me, college is about the change and growth that occurs, not the odds of getting into Acme Law School or the number of Bear Stearns recruiters on campus. Teach a kid how to think critically, ask questions, analyze, and communicate and all the rest of it will take care of itself. I know that runs counter to the prevailing theory that if you get into W middle school, you'll get into X high school, which guarantees Z grad school, and a career with ABC corporation. But, I think that misses the whole point of a good college education.</p>

<p>Large state universities, mid-size private universities, and small undergrad colleges each offer a different set of positive and negative attributes. I don't view any of the three as intrinsically "better". Just different. The relative cost, which varies for every applicant in every state, surely tips the scales one direction or another, in ways that are difficult to generalize. For example, UVa for you is very attrractive financially. For us, the out-of-state tuition pushes the cost very close to private schools that spend considerably more per student on "extras" like small class sizes, discussion sections led by professors, etc. So you and I have a completely different value equation, based solely on the fact that we have to pay two vastly different prices.</p>

<p>I wish that we had the option of an excellent state university with in-state tuition. I would have loved to have been presented with that kind of choice.</p>

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<p>besides prestige, what makes an education at an elite school worth it?</p>

<p>My daughter has had great jobs on campus- for the last couple years she has been a computer tech- and the college even paid for her to continue computer training while she took a year off- I think at a larger school- that sort of job would be much more competitive.
She has a organizational coach- that she meets with when she needs to- inlcuded in tuition. Ditto for tutoring etc.
Other schools we looked at- those fees were often extra- fine if you don't need them, but it is nice to have.
She is currently writing her senior thesis- meets with her thesis advisor regularly- this is a different advisor than she had the previous three years, but she enjoys having lots of time to build relationship with profs- ( having her own office doesn't hurt either- studying in her apt- she gets distracted and in the library she can't eat)
that reminds me about another perk- she had a single room for three years without even requesting one( having a single helped so much with studying)- this year she is off campus in a townhouse- owned by the college- two bedroom two bath.( our house doesn't even have two bathrooms!)
Lots of on( & off) campus sponsored functions that are free or low fee.
Opportunities for students- that at a larger university- would not be available until grad school. Only college where the nuclear reactor is primarily operated by undergrads for example.
It really does depend on the student- my daughter who is attending a large public high school has a great time with a larger selection of courses and activities, but academically her education can't compare to her sisters, where teh classrooms were half the size.
For some students- attending a large state university, is like throwing them in the water and watching them learn to swim- some do learn to swim- some drown- and some just barely make it to the side.
Some students don't want so much contact with profs- but for the ones that do, it is going to be easier to do that- where the ratios are better</p>

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<p>Interesteddad, I don't disagree with you. My daughter is a senior and before having to actually confront this where to go to college question, I wouldn't have thought it would be so complicated. And, of course, it is not really my decision. Things would be easy if my D knew she wanted to attend UVA or William & Mary, but for whatever reason they are not her first choices. She wants to apply to a couple of Ivys and elite LACs, but in my opinion cannot articulate very good reasons for preferring them to the state schools, or even for preferring one elite school to another. I know, of course, that its not fair to expect a kid to be able to do that. But just about when I've convinced myself that an elite LAC is a good choice for D, I read an article like the one that started this thread.</p>

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<p>Marite -- That must have been at Harvard? Because the image of a Cabot Lodge at Brandeis is even funnier.</p>

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<p>Invirginia:</p>

<p>I hear ya. It's funny. When we were looking at colleges (inc. W&M and UVa), I told my daughter, "this would be a lot easier if we lived in Virginia!".</p>

<p>I don't think it's really possible to make comparisions in general. Specifics are required. Which private school? What is the real cost difference? How much are you paying to get how much per student spending? And, so on and so forth.</p>

<p>At the end of the day, I didn't feel that W&M and UVa offered particularly good value for an out-of-state applicant. Yes, they were about $10,000 a year cheaper (before they nickle and dime you to death on the fees). But, at the end of the day, an out-of-stater is paying near private school prices for a state U. product. They can talk about not having TAs and all the rest, but it's not the same style of education as a small LAC can provide and I guarantee UVa isn't spending $68,000 per student.</p>

<p>But, flip it to in-state tuition, and you obviously have a different comparison. Yes, the leather seats and power moonroof are nice, but there is a price-value-judgement to be made. That's such an individual decision.</p>

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<p>interesteddad,</p>

<p>My D's friend, who is in our state's flagship, called her yesterday. My daughter asked her who she hangs out with at college. You guessed it, the same old HS crowd. IMO, a good reason to look out of state.</p>

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<p>I attended a large state U. I was in Honors and in my major honors. I was 1 of 2 females in the program. Had 100% acceptance at grad schools. My closest friends all male. Lots of acquaintqances, no lasting friends. Got a great education, but... Every year had to move.
S at small U; started research in 1st term. Surrounded by true peers. Easily engaged in ECs. Paying a lot, but I hope he has a great experience and looks back fondly on his college days. He lives with same group all 4 years.
I don't know if its worth it for everyone, but I'm giving my S the opportunity that I didn't have.</p>

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<p>Bookworm:</p>

<p>Just to be a bit different. I attended a mid-sized research uni. I lived in different dorms with different roommates for the first three years and moved off-campus my senior year. S1 attended a smallish LAC. He lived in dorms for the first three years, the in a college-owned apartment (shared with 9 other students) in his senior year. S2 attends mid-sized research uni. After freshman year, he will be with the same suitemates for the following three years unless he chooses to live off-campus, which very few do. The difference in experiences is based on housing policies, not the size of the college. I assume, however, that at large state unis, housing is based on dorm living.</p>

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<p>Sac, yes it was. It would have indeed been funny at Brandeis.</p>

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<p>token adult wrote: "Someone needs to replicate the Krueger and Dale study a few more times before I will fully believe its conclusion..." </p>

<p>reply: Perhaps it varies from field to field. I don't need a study to tell you that in MY field, the magazine writing business, an elite degree means nothing. I never looked at where my writers obtained a degree or gave it a single thought until my older kid started applying to college. When I did pay attention, I realized why I and the other editors I knew didn't factor that in: It had less than zero to do with the ability to perform. It could be that in other fields ie law or medicine an elite degree does make a difference. People in those fields would be best qualified to respond as to their observation. In writing, you are only as good as your last few stories. If you can't do it who cares where the degree came from? An editor is not going to sit there spending 3 weeks rewriting your inept story just because you went to Yale, but will hire you again and again if the work is good, even if you are a high school drop out. That's the way it goes. What a writer needs is training. Writers will do best in schools that give the best training, whether it is elite or not --and I can tell you from long experience behind the editor's desk that some of the elite schools do not deliver well here.</p>

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<p>I notice that here in Fla. where we live....where the kids all go from our local high school to one of the state U's........They all hang around together and are despondent if their particular group can't ALL go to the SAME in-state U. One of the biggest reason to go away in the first place is to have new experiences with NEW people IMHO...</p>

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<p>I agree with ID's comment above. Dale and Kreuger's study is meaningless to me, because I don't give a flying fig how far my kids get in the career world. As I told my D (graduate of a top LAC) who's presently jobhunting and not looking at anything "prestigious", all I care is that you have to enough to eat, keep a roof over your head, and like what you're doing. So studies which show who makes X dollars are immaterial, to me.</p>

<p>What was different was the quality of her expeience, which is demeaned by saying its about driving a Lexus rather than a Subaru. At the first school she attended, she could have followed all sorts of preprofessioanl opportunities, and done fine. But she was miserable, and she transfered. Being around students who uniformly care about learning, ideas, and quality of life (not how much money you can earn) was a life changing and self affirming experience for her. </p>

<p>It had nothing to do with careers or money, prestige or not. But it has definitely made a difference in her sense of who she is in the world.</p>

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<p>We let our son make the decision to go to an elite private university, rather than one of our great public universities, even though we personally don't believe it will make a difference in his ultimate success, however you measure that. He is having some experiences that he would not have had at a UC (being in a different part of the country, taking a core curriculum, having a more consistent high level of discussion in some classes). He would have had some experiences at a UC that he is not having in the Ivy League (access to a fantastic education abroad program, the chance to switch majors more easily, a huge choice of courses).</p>

<p>There really is no way I can justify this. We told him the decision was his after making sure he applied, visited, and seriously considered the UCs. There are opportunities everywhere, and we told him to go where he thought he would take the fullest advantage of them.</p>

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<p>I've seen this link to the "Aims of Education" speech in other threads. It seems apropos here, so I will post it for anyone who hasn't read it yet: <a href="http://magazine.uchicago.edu/0310/features/zen.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://magazine.uchicago.edu/0310/features/zen.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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Why, then, should I pay to send my child to an elite school when he or she could go to state university for far less or to a less elite private school with substantial merit aid?

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<p>Some kids need a breadth and challenge in a curriculum that can only be found at certain schools, most of which are considered elite. My S found only a handful of schools that had a math curriculum that suited his needs. </p>

<p>As to what can an elite school offer, he went to open house at the physics department at Princeton and was told that they have a 1:1 ratio of professors to undergraduate majors. Beginning in their junior year every student is given the opportunity to work 1:1 with a professor as part of a cutting edge research team. Five of the faculty are Nobel Laureates. This is far removed from the opportunities available at our State U.</p>

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Cookiemom, </p>

<p>Curious ... why is that quote your favorite?

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<p>I just found it humorous that Harvard would be so concerned about its image - like they needed to keep up with the Joneses.</p>

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<p>Thanks for your perspective on this issue. I realize your knowledge of the industry presents an opportunity for me to ask a question I've never been able to ask a knowledgeable person: what would be an expected income range for a magazine writer who consistently turns in good work and keeps as busy as one can keep writing magazine stories?</p>

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<p>Actually there are several good reasons to attend an elite school over that of a state university:</p>

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<li><p>As noted above, some elite schools have programs that may not be available in your state university.</p></li>
<li><p>Better Administration: I have found, with some exceptions, that private schools tend to have better administrations than that found at many state schools. Registration is often easier and usually the kids at private schools can more readily get the courses that they need for graduation. This means better 4 year graduation rates</p></li>
<li><p>Better Prestige: If you look at how many employers interview at elite schools vs. lessor known state universities, I would bet that the elite schools draw a lot more employers and offer a lot more interviews. There may not, however, be as big a distinction if you kids attend a top state school such as Berkeley, Michigan, or Virginia. However, I still think that the elite ivys draw more employers.</p></li>
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<p>4.Better contacts: There is no question in my mind that elite private schools get kids who are very well connected and who generally come from richer backgrounds than that of state schools. I don't know if you can put a value on these connections,but they do exist.</p>

<ol>
<li>Better chance to get into grad school: Elite schools generally have an easier grading policy. For example, Princeton just reduced the amount of "As" found in each class to a measily 35%. Harvard and Yale, from people that I know attended there, has even more As in classes and rarely gives less than a C. Someone who attended Harvard noted that 95% of the students graduate with honors!</li>
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<p>In the public universities that I know of such as Maryland, there is a stricter bell curve with 10% As, 20% Bs, 40% Cs and 30% for the rest. Admittedly this varies from class to class and school to school;however, I do believe that it is much harder to get top grades at most state universities than that of private schools. This is also supported by the fact that most state schools, even the top ones, have a mandate to take incomming kids from junior colleges. Thus, these state schools "need" to flunk out kids to make room for incomming transfers. At Maryland, I was keenly aware of this policywhen I taught there. The school certainly didn't mind if I failed as many as 20% of the kids. You really have to watch for this grade devaluation at state schools.</p>

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<li>Private schools can offer more support services: Just like private vs. public high schools, private schools can offer more support services. For example, I have an older son that was diagnosed with a learning disability. When I investigated colleges for him, none of the state schools were listed in the top 10 recommended programs for kids with learning issues. Our local state universities only gave a modicum of services. </li>
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<p>However, with all this said, state schools are a bargain for the education. I think that the education is very similar to that of their private school counterparts at one third of the cost of their private school counterparts.</p>