Hmmmn-CAL, UCLA, Pomona, UDub, USC, Vandy-where to go?

We are legal guardians to my niece. She is currently accepted to: CAL, UCLA, USC, Pomona, Vandy, and Georgetown. Wait listed at WashU. Deferred at Yale. Waiting next week for Princeton.

She eventually wants to go to dental school. She went to a private school out west–graduating in the 3% of her senior class of 450 students. She is a URM, and likes metropolitan cities and will probably major in a STEM. Money will play a marginal role in the decision. We have two older daughters that have already gone to college–(CAL and Yale)–so we have some experience and were just curious where people would lean…

All of them are outstanding… there is no right or wrong answer, but these are very different schools…

Pomona really jumps out… it is a small college (but part of a vibrant, large consortium)… she will get a very personal education there with outstanding advising and much attention from professors. Then you have medium size private universities: Georgetown and Vandy. Berkeley, UCLA, and USC are all very large research universities… the undergraduate education will be solid and well-respected… but very impersonal, especially in popular majors… and the advising will be minimal.

Some students thrive in big, unstructured environments… others will flail around and feel lost.
In small colleges, some students thrive with smaller classes and direct attention from professors; other students feel confined and claustrophobic.

No one can answer what is best for your niece, except your niece and perhaps you.

But congrats, these are all AWESOME options.

Thank you, very insightful. As with most things in life (wanting what we can’t have), it is fitting, her number one choice is Yale. But, we will see…

Seconding Pomona. But yeah, great choices all around–it’s a win/win/win/etc.

LACs aren’t always advantageous than research-based universities.
Advising at Berkeley isn’t lame. It would only appear to be so when the students don’t do your part or are lazy.
But usually, research-based universities do have many more resources that the students can take advantage of. The level of research would also be substantially higher as well. Oftentimes, undergrad students wanting to do research are merged or paired with grad students who often are extremely talented and who mostly come from the best schools around the world. The experience to be in such mix is educational in itself. But that is something absent at schools like LACs.
In my opinion, if the students would be interested in STEM, going to a research-based university would be ideal. For the humanities, however, and those students who haven’t matured up yet and they think they’d under perform surrounded by over-performing, highly independent students, LACs would be ideal for them.
In short, research-based schools aren’t always disadvantageous to LACs. In most cases, it’s the other way around. But it still is a matter of fit and the level of maturity of the student.

Without knowing her preferences, likes and dislikes there is no way to say what would be best for her. And her offers are not all in yet. But she should think about where she will be happiest.

To clarify, at the moment, she is wrestling between UCLA and Pomona. In our eyes, two solid, but very distinct choices. If she beats the odds, and gets into Yale…well, that would upset the proverbial “apple cart”.

So, with the obvious, but very disparate features these institutions bring to the table, what are your thoughts. These are some of the things she is torn with: love the intimacy of Pomona v. UCLA has world class research, Westwood and it’s attributes v. village like setting of Pomona, incredible facilities v. Great acces to faculty …etc

Disclosure, OP: I went to a small LAC myself for undergrad, after which I got a PhD from an Ivy (currently a postdoc). I also think that students can get an excellent education at either, which is exemplified by the great outcomes at both UCLA and Pomona, so there’s no wrong answer here. Personally I would choose Pomona.

The professors that teach at places like Pomona would have also been competitive for jobs at top research universities (and may have gotten interviews or offers at some) - they have usually done at least one postdoc and have the research chops and publications. If you take a look at the professors in your daughter’s choice of major, likely they have gotten their PhDs from the best programs. (I know that is the case in my field.) They choose to go to SLACs because they want to interact closely with undergraduates and teach small classes. Elite liberal arts colleges have teaching loads that actually aren’t all that different from top R1s (2/2, or two classes a semester) and they expect their professors to be involved in research. Professors at top-notch SLACs usually get small grants from national agencies, so while there won’t be an fMRI scanner or other expensive equipment, there are definitely resources. And at this point in their nascent careers, undergrads don’t need access to expensive equipment or world-class research. They need a patient mentor who is research-active but who is also willing to guide them and teach them how to do the research. SLAC professors are hired on the basis of their desire and ability to mentor undergraduates in research along with teaching.

I am currently at a large public research university and have observed a mix. Obviously the professors at UCLA are going to come from the best places and be doing the best kind of research. I can’t say that the professors seem excited about teaching or mentoring undergraduates on average, but having attended an Ivy for grad school (another research institution) I will say that many of the professors there did care deeply about their undergrads and spent hours mentoring and chatting with them, so there’s just more of a mix at research universities. Many lower-level classes are large but also the majority of students are not going to seek out the professor after class, so I think that a student who wants a close personal relationship with faculty at a large research university can get it if they are willing to pursue it.

I will say that incredible facilities are really nice to have, even as an undergrad. If your daughter is interested in research, having access to good papers and journals and databases is important, and good library instruction can also help a lot (i.e. having librarians who teach classes on citation managers or are willing to help thesis students). I worked in the library of a SLAC doing these tasks, though, so SLACs do have them. A place like UCLA will obviously have a much better library, and potentially better study spaces and computer labs and a student center etc.

I disagree with @ababon that it’s about the maturity level of the student - there are students of all maturity levels at schools of all sizes; given Pomona’s stature I’m pretty sure the students there are also overachieving and highly independent. But I do agree that sometimes there is a value in forming relationships with graduate students. I mentored some undergrads when I was a grad student and it was such an enriching experience for both of us - they asked me many questions about graduate school, which I could answer on a more immediate basis than my PI; I gave them the research guidance that they needed, and I had much more of my time to give than our busy professors. The interesting thing, though, is that’s what made me want to teach at an LAC or some place that emphasizes undergrad education. And I can’t say that most of my grad student colleagues were as interested in mentoring undergrads (in fact, my enjoyment of it made me kind of a curiosity in my department, lol). You’ll get more of a mix at a place like UCLA - many professors are really interested in shepherding people through, teaching, but their primary job is research and that’s where the rewards (tenure, money, stature) lie. But the resources that they have are going to be phenomenal and probably more than you can access at a small liberal arts college.

Anyway, having gone to an LAC I think it’s a pretty ideal environment for college, so were it me I’d pick Pomona! But it really depends on your daughter’s preferences.

Much thanks Juiliet. You make a very lucid and detailed offering of some features she may have not given thought to–and all of these items are high on her personal college agenda. I think, and who can actually get into the mind and psyche of an 18 year old, is the formidable social scene of UCLA. She is a serious student, so I’m rather certain she won’t go overboard, so all things considered, she is weighing everything…are we missing anything by eliminating the other schools?

I’d pick Pomona over UCLA, too, but that was a very hard decision. But I would pick Berkeley over Pomona. This is for STEM. But if I get into Princeton, I’d go to Princeton.

Well, if the Ivy schools come through, that sets up a distinctly different decision for her. One, she has a soft spot for Yale ( our youngest D is there–her 1st cousin–and they are like sisters), so we will cross that bridge if it appears on the horizon. Two kids at once at Yale, basically full price, certainly worth it…whole foods will no longer be the grocery of choice.

My daughter went to Pomona and majored in one of the humanities fields. STEM fields aside, she had no trouble getting research positions and in fact the professors go out of their way to assist any student who expresses interest. Her friends in STEM fields also had no trouble getting research positions. I can’t speak to the importance of the research which might be better at a university. Pomona even supplies the means for transportation into the city should you secure a research position during the summer. Most LAC’s are known for the great relationships between the professors and the students. I can’t say enough about the mentoring she received.

She is currently attending a large flagship university for a master degree unrelated to her undergrad major. She still takes at least one class a semester in her major because she loves it so much. The classes she takes in her major at the university are easier than the classes she took at Pomona. So either the professors/classes are harder or there is less of a gap in the range of student abilities at Pomona.

I don’t think you have any wrong choices but your daughter may have preferences, which are important. Size of school, size of classes, availability of professors, etc. play the most important role in the decision. Both schools will get you where you want to go as long as she is motivated… And obviously the price matters. :slight_smile: Good luck!

Thank you, Artwell. Really great points and considerations. At this point, price considerations are a side consideration, as we will probably full retail OOS–although UDub has offered some form of merit scholarship–but, it’s not high on her list.