<p>I heard opposite. Holistic approach is for public support of UC. There are more voters than college educated people. Holistic approach gives impression that “everyone can do it”, so it broadens support for UC among voters.</p>
<p>Re: #100</p>
<p>Both statements are incorrect – the UCs do not consider “level of applicant’s interest”, and many students are admitted to more than one.</p>
<p>Who knows what university needs? A Prof, who teaches students … or an experienced administrator (experienced in what?)</p>
<p>I know that in my univ, Physics dept. refused to accept students that AO sends them. They may be holistic leaders, but they don’t know physics. Period. I am working for UC system. Physics dept said that they need veto power to screen students that AO sends them. </p>
<p>There are so many really great American kids! I see my daughter’s classmates, they are just great. Somewhere, down the road, these kids disappear from the pipeline. There is not enough bright kids in top grad programs => why?</p>
<p>There is not enough bright kids to go to STEM Ph.Ds. Each year USA imports lots of Chinese-Indian kids to grad programs. Stanford, Harvard, UCB … all import grad students, en mass. Majority of grad students - foreigners. Many STEM Prof. at Harvard-Stanford are foreigners. Why?</p>
<p>If you are referring to frosh admissions, the physics department does not need to care – lower division physics and math courses will “screen” prospective physics majors. Of course, at the junior transfer level, the physics department would care, in that it wants the entering student to be ready for upper division physics courses.</p>
<p>As far as PhD programs go, remember that American bachelor’s degree graduates can get jobs in the US more easily than internationals. Also, PhD study is often the only affordable way for an international to study at a US university.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Kids in HS are great. I see really great kids. Talented, driven … perfect.</p></li>
<li><p>Top college mantra “there are too many qualified applicants.” Screening, screening, screening.</p></li>
<li><p>Grad school … not enough candidates! Oooops. Need to import Asians. Actually, it is much easier to get into Harvard grad school than into Harvard undergrad. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>Do you see a problem here? AO select students that Prof. resent. Who wants to teach “remedial classes” at colleges, even at Stanford-Harvard? Profs don’t like the students that AO sends them. Who is wrong?</p>
<p>Colleges do not value their own merit students. The very same colleges have to import merit grad students later on. Over 70% of STEM grad students are foreigners … often with lower qual. than American kids. </p>
<p>US colleges simply do NOT value bright US kids. It is much easier to become TA at Harvard than to become an undergrad.</p>
<p>Yes, many students are accepted to several UC colleges. However, they are not accepted to SIMILAR colleges. For example, they won’t be accepted to UCLA + Berkeley for the same major. They may be accepted to UCLA + UCI, for example, if UCI promises some perks.</p>
<p>^^^ No, sorry, incorrect. As ucbalumnus pointed out, many kids are accepted to both UCB and UCLA. In my daughter’s class, every kid that got in to UCB got in to UCLA, and some kids who were admitted to UCLA were also admitted to UCB. Most of these kids attended neither, as they had other offers from Stanford and Ivies.</p>
<p>Calif, not a prof who teaches one or two classes at Stanford (I don’t think I found her on full-time faculty-?) and one at USF. It should be someone who knows Berkeley. </p>
<p>Physics is one dept (music being another) where, ime, a few apps are sent for the prof(s) to give feedback on. They are welcome to decide and refuse. Why do you think admissions sends the papers over, if not to let physics vet them? </p>
<p>Kids in hs are great, yes. But that does not automatically translate to being able to fill out a Common App, present themselves as mature, with good judgment, and a host of other things. (Spent much time on the chance-me threads?) Holistic is NOT (read my lips) NOT about “nice” or whose friends and family think this kid is a winner. It is for the colleges to decide. It’s not all about stats. </p>
<p>What is your beef? Do you have a kid in college, have you been through this process recently and do you know what is expected? Not by the high school, but by the colleges these kids aspire to? And are you saying “too many applicants” is a fake-out? More than 60,000 applied to UCB; 14000 offers went out.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>And you draw THAT conclusion from the statistics you posted? How do you come up with the conclusion that the “white men” are preferred to more qualified Asians at Stanford? </p>
<p>May I suggest to invest a bit of time in understanding the differences in the enrollled pools at Stanford and UCB before spreading such non-sensical drivel.</p>
<p>To lookingforward,</p>
<p>I am surprised by the fact that it is easier to get into Harvard-Stanford-Berkeley grad program, than undergrad. </p>
<p>In STEM grad program, there is NOT enough qualified candidates from US. In STEM undergrad, its too many. Where do they disappear from the pipeline? Probably, they are negatively selected by AO. </p>
<p>My point is, AO selects wrong students for undergrads. AO selects students that are not valued by Profs. STEM Profs are not interested in teaching low level undergrad classes … they don’t feel that they have “their” students. Somehow, the system is broken.</p>
<p>The value of merit is very low. There is no pipeline, HS->college->grad->employer. It is easier for a foreigner (like me) to jump into the pipeline, than for an American kid (like my kids).</p>
<p>to momsquad,</p>
<p>You probably have exceptional kids, who were admitted to UCB, UCLA, Stanford, and Ivys simultaneously. Congrats!</p>
<p>Quate,</p>
<p>“Kids in HS are great, yes. But that does not automatically translate to being able to fill out a Common App, present themselves as mature, with good judgment, and a host of other things.”</p>
<p>May be something is wrong with Common App? We have great kids at HS … but we loose them. At the time for STEM grad school application - the pipeline is dry. </p>
<p>First, AO employs affirmative action (or holistic approach) to promote URM. Next, grad schools massively import Asian grad students. May I suggest that this strategy is … strange?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Most of the engineering bachelor’s degree graduates go get jobs.</p>
<p>For biology, the top graduates go to medical school. Sure, some go to biology PhD programs, but many realize that getting a good research or academic job after a PhD is very steep odds.</p>
<p>Calif, what do you really know about how UG admissions works? </p>
<p>Sorry you find the physics dept at UCB so dissatisfied. I have to wonder. </p>
<p>The reason kids fall out of the pipeline is that the high school experience teaches them how to master hs. That particular hs, those teachers, those rules and regulations and tracks, that specific set of peers, and that level of thinking and writing- while living at home. Nothing says, automatically, that the kids you think are perfect in hs are perfect for that college. </p>
<p>Too many kids and parents think college should be an award for being a big deal at their high schools. But the colleges are looking for kids who can contribute at the next, higher level. </p>
<p>Your comments about holistic/AA/URMs is opinion only. if you have a kid in hs, I hope you will do the leg work to understand better what it IS, that makes a college decide to go to bat for him or her and set another 75%-plus of the apps aside. It is not superficial.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>[Elk</a> Grove teen goes 9 for 9 in elite college admissions - Education - The Sacramento Bee](<a href=“http://www.sacbee.com/2013/05/30/5457373/elk-grove-teen-goes-9-for-9-in.html]Elk”>http://www.sacbee.com/2013/05/30/5457373/elk-grove-teen-goes-9-for-9-in.html) describes a student who got into all of UCB, UCLA, UCSD, and UCD (as well as HYPSM).</p>
<p>My D may do engineering as a college major, I highly doubt she’ll go on to grad school if she can find a good job with only an engineering undergrad degree. There are a lot of kids who get their bachelors and then do not go onto grad school not because they can’t do the work or get accepted, but because they have found good jobs already and don’t see a good payoff to continuing on.</p>
<p>Basically what ucb said:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>"Too many kids and parents think college should be an award for being a big deal at their high schools. " </p>
<p>Yes, exactly. Kids need a very clear objective. “Work hard, master you skills, get knowledge and you would be accepted into a good college”. That’s how I grew up. </p>
<p>Unfortunately, I can’t tell my kid the same. She can get all As … but no one cares. Perfect SAT - no one cares. Kids are not valued on merit - what message do they get? I can’t ask my D to study hard, because I know that her rigor is not that important … </p>
<p>The fact is, it is much easier to get into grad program than undergrad. Why can’t colleges get more STEM students to begin with? Why do we have a dry pipeline, that is filed by immigrants? </p>
<p>Harvard won’t accept my D as undergrad, yet it accepted me as TA long time ago. Funny … because my D. is a better student than I was, when I was a TA.</p>
<p>Much more common is for engineers to work for a few years then get their MBA when it’s time to move up.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Considering that your daughter is still at the stage of choosing between a neighborhood high school of mostly busywork, a magnet high school, and a low performing gang infested high school (as described in <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1538293-magnet-minority-hs.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1538293-magnet-minority-hs.html</a> ), it is rather premature to even think about her chances at Harvard or other universities.</p>
<p>In any case, almost all selective universities are more selective now than they used to be, due to a larger population of high school graduates relative to the number of spaces in the universities.</p>
<p>Quote:</p>
<p>"As far as PhD programs go, remember that American bachelor’s degree graduates can get jobs in the US more easily than internationals. Also, PhD study is often the only affordable way for an international to study at a US university. "</p>
<ol>
<li>"American bachelor’s degree graduates can get jobs in the US more easily than internationals. " … Yes, American BS can get a job easier than internationals with BS. Even American high school grads can get a job easier than internationals with high school diploma. What’s the point?</li>
</ol>
<p>Ph.D. is a big plus even if you work in the industry. In academia, Ph.D. is a must. Yet, there is not enough bright American students to fill Ph.D. programs. Where are US kids?</p>
<ol>
<li>“PhD study is often the only affordable way for an international to study at a US university”. There are many incentives for internationals to come to US to grad programs. I wonder, why US doesn’t have enough of its own applicants? There are many great kids in HS … where do they disappear?</li>
</ol>