Homeschooling is SUCH a JOKE!

Pre-College Issues Home Schooling and College
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<p>First of all, many homeschooling parents do NOT want anything from the public schools because they fear this is the first step toward regulation. I'm not saying I agree, but the attitude does exist. </p>

<p>Second, except for special education, all those other resources are things that the state or individual school system has chosen that it wants to provide to homeschooled students. The authorities could choose not to provide any of those things; indeed, in my state, that has been the choice. So the beef should not be with homeschoolers taking advantage of what the governing bodies have decided would be good public policy to provide.</p>

<p>Third, homeschooled kids are still citizens and their parents pay taxes. Public schools are supposed to benefit the community, not just the kids who attend. If providing services to homeschoolers increases the welfare of people in the community, I don't see the rationale for excluding them merely because they don't wish to subscribe to all the school has to offer.</p>

<p>Finally, as far as special education is concerned, the services for homeschoolers are minimal to nonexistent in a number of places in this country. However, the rationale of special education is that it is worth it to society to provide such intervention to the kids who need it. To deny services to anyone who needs them is shortsighted. It seems to me to be a strange position for a teacher to take that only certain students should be entitled to receive help. It also makes little sense -- is it cheaper to force parents who would otherwise homeschool to put their special needs kids in the local public school just to get these services? Heck, no -- then the school would have to provide the services AND the specialized education. </p>

<p>We didn't homeschool to make things creative and fun. We homeschooled because my daughter wasn't being challenged to her potential and her areas of need weren't being remediated. Yes, she was special ed but there was nothing special about it. Talking to the school got us nowhere. What we wanted, what my daughter needed, wasn't "part of the curriculum." So she just had to try to learn grammar through osmosis, even though she had been language-delayed and had to be specifically taught to get it at all. The same thing was true for vocabulary and writing. She needed a good textbook to learn math, which admittedly the school lacked, but we were just supposed to live with that one as well.</p>

<p>Standards? Don't make me laugh. When it seemed likely that we would sue to try to improve our daughter's educational program, miraculously, semester grades came out and several were higher than they would have been taking into account the recent printouts I had for each course. Surprise, surprise, with the new grades she was doing fine, it would seem. Under US Supreme Court precedent, the grades would indicate she had a "free appropriate public education" and so we wouldn't be entitled to anything more. I pointed out the fraud in our administrative appeal and it was never denied. The only response was for the school to claim it couldn't do what we wanted because the central office said no, and the central office blaming the school.</p>

<p>When she had the intervention we wanted at the beginning of 6th grade, my daughter had straight A's. Then she was switched to the school's model of how she should be educated and her grades plummeted. When I pointed this out, I was told that "research shows" that what they were doing was right. What research is that, I asked. Or we'll get back to you on that one, they said -- and never did. (I've looked at quite a few claims of educational "research" through the years -- mostly it doesn't exist at all or consists of people citing the opinions of those who agree with them. I talked to someone once who went to graduate school in education to finally see all this research; she was astounded to discover it doesn't exist. It didn't apparently bother any of her classmates for they had the true faith.) </p>

<p>Suing would not have helped. Both my husband and I are lawyers and had studied what happened with appeals. The teachers lie -- "oh, little Suzy is doing just fine." (This may seem harsh, but I know of several instances where teachers confidentially told parents that they agreed with them but it would mean their jobs to tell the truth. One teacher did tell the truth as she saw it, and was officially reprimanded for not supporting the school system's position in a case. The union refuses to touch this subject.) IEPs are deliberately written to use subjective teacher evaluations rather than anything objective (something folks have actually seen in official training -- school systems were losing appeals and so had to learn to write more slippery IEPs). Moreover, my local school system's lawyers actually provided training to the state ALJs (I personally reviewed the course materials -- a biased reading of precedent). In light of all this, we decided it would be foolhardy to sue. No one could force the school to be competent if it did not want to be. Our response was to immediately pull my daughter out to homeschool.</p>

<p>My husband and I have talked to enough other parents, or read of their experiences, to know that our experience is not atypical of our local school system or many others. Different details, perhaps, but same basic result. It is only going to get worse now with the new Supreme Court case saying that the burden of proof is on parents -- a case that arose from my school system, by the way. Funny, the money is always there to fight parents tooth and nail, spending far more than giving them what they asked for would cost.</p>

<p>I read my state's educational standards like many homeschoolers do. I found them fuzzy, dumbed down, and not worth a thing. I chose to use college texts whenever possible, myself. I didn't homeschool to make things "fun." Trying to make things fun is what didn't work for my daughter, which, of course, meant that it wasn't fun at all. Surprisingly enough, given modern pedagogical theory, my daughter found it much more fun to actually be taught things, rather than endure her teachers' creativity.</p>

<p>I started with a 7th grade daughter in special education close to failing nearly every academic class-- well, according to the real grades, not the fake ones. The sole exception was an A in Spanish, where the teacher tried to teach the subject in a straightforward fashion, rather than making it "fun." My daughter has just finished her first semester at Brown (one reported grade so far -- an A; my daughter is here and wants me to mention that!) -- no accommodations for testing or otherwise. </p>

<p>I don't see how official standards helped my daughter or the absence of them hurt our homeschooling results. </p>

<p>Even though we were entitled to them at the time, I rejected the idea of continuing the speech path's services once we began homeschooling. She thought Latin would "confuse" my daughter. Um, said daughter ended up with three years of Latin, three years of ancient Greek, and an English score in the 99th percentile of the ACT (unaccommodated).</p>

<p>OK, I need to take some deep cleansing breaths and relax. Just remembering her public school experience -- in a self-proclaimed "world class" system, no less -- obviously gets my juices flowing.</p>

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<p>Many school districts have problems initiating gifted programs as there often isn't funding to cover the programs. As a result some gifted students never are able to get the kind of attention that the special ed kids receive. A proper homeschool curriculum can taylor a program for that student. </p>

<p>A friend who was in charge of development and was also the assistant
superintendant of a large district actually commented how my S was getting a better education at home.
(Of course this was off the record):)</p>

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<p>I agree that there is a problem with gifted programs. In my school district the gifted and the special needs parents groups have at times joined together because they have the same problems. The one size fits all approach doesn't work for their kids. They also get the runaround constantly from the school district, being told that things are official system "policy" even when they aren't, being shunted off into committees in order to quiet dissent ("paralysis by analysis" -- when the system wants to do something, it just does it, bypassing the parents altogether), and so on.</p>

<p>I wouldn't agree that special ed kids necessarily receive all that much attention overall. Of course, there are exceptions. However, there is the overall trend, driven by economics, for "maindumping" -- you put the kids in regular ed, provide essentially no services, and tell the parents that "research shows" this is the best thing to do for all children. The research doesn't really exist last time we checked; my husband calls it a "fact-free daisy chain" -- X cites the opinion of Y, who supported that opinion by Z, who gets his evidence from a purely opinion piece by X. Then, A comes along and says it is well established by X, Y, and Z.</p>

<p>Then there are the children who are gifted with special needs. Heaven help them. Their gifts make up for the deficits sufficiently that they seem to be doing well enough to not get either acceleration or remediation, even though they need both.</p>

<p>On the other hand, there are the kids in the middle. Their parents will tell you that these children are shortchanged because of all the attention being given to either extreme!</p>

<p>One thing I didn't mention yesterday was high stakes testing for graduation. Am I the only one in a place where this is a joke? In my state, the "algebra" isn't really algebra, the questions are the equivalent to the sixth grade Singapore Math exam (actually somewhat simpler). The students are given "study guides" designed by teachers who have seen the actual final test. The guide has the actual questions, thinly disguised (change candy to cookies, etc.). And students still have problems passing!</p>

<p>The teachers have also been caught here a number of times cheating, sharing the actual tests with students, changing answer sheets, etc. My son tells me there is a chapter in the book "Freakonomics" about this phenomenon; I'll have to check it out.</p>

<p>Thank goodness I live where I have a world-class school system!</p>

<p>I don't mean to say that there aren't many great, dedicated teachers out there. My kids had some of them and I will always be grateful. The system can and does work for many kids, I guess, judging by the CC sort of poster anyway. I just sometimes wonder how given the system and the organization imperatives teachers face. They all mean well, no doubt, but sometimes this isn't enough.</p>

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<p>Yes, the great thing about homeschooling is that you can fit it to your kids, rather than trying to fit them into the system. For example, my first son taught himself to read about the time he turned five. Yet he was socially immature. And his Tourette's Syndrome would have caused him to be teased in school--especially in the year it took for doctors to diagnose it. Homeschooling, and taking part in small group activities like Scouts and church groups, worked best for him when he was little.</p>

<p>My second son, on the other hand, was socially mature and quite talented in math, but he couldn't read until he was nine years old. His brain just was not ready. (He learned quite quickly during his third grade year at home.) At school he would have been in remedial reading classes, not able to keep up in other classes, since reading is required in all classes, and perhaps labelled as "dumb." But at home he could move ahead in his areas of strength (with me to read to him as needed) and take the time he needed in reading. </p>

<p>My boys DID take part in some classes at the local high school, as well as extracurricular activities, when they reached that age. The assistant superintendent in charge of alternative education felt that homeschoolers were also tax payers and deserved a chance to use school resources, if they desired. We never had anyone complain about their participation; in fact, they were welcomed by teachers and students. To me, that is what education should be: a team effort that includes school, parents, and community. And each family should be able to decide what combination works best for their children, whether it be fulltime public school, halftime classes, or just taking advantage of extracurricular activities. After all, don't we all want an educated population?</p>

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<p>Here is my question: I have never had a homeschooled child in my softball program at the high school I teach at. How do we determine whether they are academically elligible? How do we determine if they are "attending" class in order to be elligible to play? Since I have not had to work with this issue yet, I do not know the rules or how it works. I would hope that there are set rules and standards, otherwise I would imagine a lot of parents and coaches who value athletics over academics would pressure players who struggle in the classroom to take a leave of absense in order to stay elligible. Does anyone know of rules that apply to school districs in their homestate or town? I agree its great for all kids to be able to participate in something--(and even some kids who attend the school lose track of having pride in their own school)--but how can a home schooled child have pride in representing a school that they truly do not represent? </p>

<p>ALSO I am NOT saying that I am disregarding the value of homeschooling---there is definetly a place for it as there is with charter schools and private schools. I understand some families may not be able to afford resources such as speech pathology or special education resources and need to take advantage of the resources available that they pay honest tax dollars for. </p>

<p>I understand it can be offensive to parents who homeschool their kids---just as it is EXTREMELY offensive to me when I read posts that I "mean well" and
"do my best" with my students. Every year teachers have to attend additional classes and meetings to continue their expertise (usually paid out of our own pockets) I agree that our national and state education programs are flawed (thanks W!) but I guess I am extremely fortunate that I live and work in a school district that I have the faith to say, "They are getting the job done and not just 'meaning well'."</p>

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<p>I think determining eligibility for homeschoolers participating in PS activities varies from state to state. In Oregon, homeschoolers in general have to be tested in grades 3, 5, 8, and 10 and pass a certain percentile in order to continue. Homeschoolers who wish to participate in school activities, however, must test every year and pass a slightly higher standard, as well as being in line with all other standards for homeschoolers (such as being registered with the educational service district).</p>

<p>Eagles2000, I have a lot of respect for you and for your vocation. I was, myself, a certified teacher at one time, although I never made it past substitute teaching. My boys, as I said above, have taken some high school classes, and most of their teachers have been very good, some truly excellent. Only a couple of them were ones we considered poor--very unorganized, not responsive to the students, or not providing a positive learning experience. I agree that many teachers do more than just "meaning well." It can be difficult, however, for a teacher to teach a class with widely ranging abilities, interests, and learning styles, and do the very best for each student. I know I couldn't do that for a class of 25-30. It is MUCH easier with a class of one or two, such as I have when homeschooling. That doesn't mean that teachers don't do a good job, just that the tutoring relationship in homeschooling is a more efficient one, for the most part. (And I definitely agree with you that the state and national ed. requirements make life difficult for teachers and students alike! I have heard that from many teachers. It really makes it hard for them to be creative and teach what they feel is most important.)</p>

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<p>I certainly meant no disrespect by saying that teachers mean well or do their best. This was intended as a compliment! I didn't want to leave the impression that I thought teachers as a whole were uncaring or lazy.</p>

<p>For many children, the regular system works. It isn't a criticism to say that for some it doesn't, despite the best intentions and diligent efforts of the teaching staff.</p>

<p>In my daughter's case, the teaching staff actually agreed with us as to what she needed. We had an agreement in principle at one IEP meeting. At the next meeting, though, a special ed administrator showed up and said that it would be illegal to write the IEP in such a way that the agreed to services had to be provided. After weeks of trying to pin down where this peculiar interpretation of law came from, we received a memo from a school system attorney saying that an IEP wasn't legally required to be as specific as we wanted. I pointed out to the school that this isn't the same as saying that being specific is illegal. The principal told me that he was really sorry, he would like to do what we wanted, but that his hands were tied by the central office. He had been told, outside of this memo, that he was forbidden to be specific.</p>

<p>So we took an administrative appeal, leading to a decision that said that, "Of course, it isn't illegal for the school to be specific, but we will defer to their judgment as to what to put in the IEP." In other words, no one would take responsibility. </p>

<p>An interesting sidenote is that the person reviewing our appeal actually called me up and told me that it was the best-written and most moving appeal she had ever read. It left her in tears, she said, and she only wished for the best for our daughter. We received the negative decision a few days later, which ignored everything I had written about what worked and didn't work for my daughter and how everyone was seemingly in agreement.</p>

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<p>I have a friend who was homsechooled for a few years - his mother started it one year after the school district went on strike; it was definitely a major disservice to him (and his classmates). He returned to join us in high school with an apathy towards school and no desire to be involved in anything. I also noticed that while he was in honors courses with me, he lacks the ability to write well and doesn't understand that by 10th grade it's not acceptable to hand in an English paper triple spaced with size 17 bold font. He has no writing structure, no academic ability. </p>

<p>I'm sorry, but no parents are going to be able to replace the high school experience. You don't have your friends and you don't have the wide array of interesting and knowledgable teachers. The people that teach me everyday are geniuses, and my parents would be unable to teach me AP level courses in Latin, English, science, and history better than my Ph.D. bearing teachers.</p>

<p>Hey, if you don't want to benefit from being with others and learning from your peers - causing you to be socially maladjusted - feel free. I personally like being with other kids on my level and with teachers who know so much and offer so much to their students.</p>

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<p>whoa
you are so wrong. im not hmeschooled, but i have friends that are. they'll come to me and say, omg, today my dad was WAY to hard for me. my other friend is going to west valley. not the best school ever. homeschooled kids are homeschooled because either their parents dont have the time, effort or money to let them, or because the parents just want to avoid a public school experience. saying that homeschooling is a joke is out of line. next time you try to be cool and sadly sardonic, try to make it less offensive to a lot of people.</p>

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<p>Paulus89,
Amazing that you can extrapolate what all homeschoolers are like by your experience with one person. I know some public schooled kids who can't write well: should I thus assume that NO PS kids can write well? </p>

<p>It is great that you have such wonderful teachers and that you love your school so much. Many homeschoolers love being homeschooled just as much as you love your school. And high school is NOT a wonderful experience for all kids. How about those kids who are a bit different and get teased on a daily basis? Or those that have special needs and fall through the cracks?</p>

<p>There are many ways to learn, and no one way is right for all kids. And, by the way, being homeschooled does not mean Mom and Dad are the only ones who can teach you. Many homeschoolers take outside classes through co-ops or at the community college--or even at the high school. Studies have actually shown that homeschooled kids, overall, are BETTER adjusted socially than kids in public schools. They tend to interact more positively with all ages of people, having been exposed to a wider age range in their daily life.</p>

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<p>My homeschool education was much broader than anything I could have ever possibly experienced in the local public school system where I was living. My interaction with others my age (and including... <em>gasp</em>... many outside of my age group!) also included a wide range of different activities. By the time I graduated from highschool, I was fluent in a 2nd language (and working on another), I had written a few published articles and stories, had studied piano and clarinet, volunteered in a number of different organizations with a wide scope of interests, including teaching primary schoolers, operating audio-video equipment, arranging and orchestrating music, proofreading and editing, reading books-on-tape, radio, publishing, as well as administrative and secretarial work. In my studies, not only was I able to spend extra time and effort on those subjects with which I had more difficulty (maths), but I was also able to excel in those I partiucularly enjoyed. I even contributed to designing some of my own courseplans. </p>

<p>As far as social interaction is concerned, I think the homeschooling experience can be exceptional. When together with college friends (almost all of whom are products of the public school system), I am often struck by their lack of ability to have healthy interaction with their parents and and with others older than them. I definitely think that homeschooling has allowed me to relate well not only with people my own age (which is the restriction of the school system), but also with those both younger and older.</p>

<p>Paulus89, with all politeness, I think that this kind of rigidity and narrowmindedness toward different forms of education constributes much to the many failings of the public school system. It is arrogant to suggest that any single person or group knows best how to instate a one-size-fits-all policy for anyone and everyone and all types of students. There are millions of people in the United States today who do not share your sentiment, and there are a great many homeschooled students who excel in numerous fields and go on to the best universities.</p>

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<p>I hesitate to respond because I'm leaving on vacation and won't see any reply for weeks. But I have to say something.</p>

<p>Are you taught in your school that one is free to generalize from one individual to a population of hundreds of thousands? Or that you can label a large number of people as socially maladjusted without looking at any of the surveys of homeschooler outside involvement or studies of social adjustment (as discussed in the thread "my cousins")? </p>

<p>Further, everyone knows that NO public school students are apathetic or can't write well, right? Everybody there is a brilliant, dedicated student with scores of friends.</p>

<p>I would generalize from this one example that learning from peers and "geniuses" isn't all it is cracked up to be, but I know that reasoning like this is invalid. So does my daughter since I gave her a year of college-level logic. </p>

<p>The courses I couldn't do justice to I farmed out, like other homeschooling parents do with tutors, internships, coops, correspondence, and community and 4 year colleges. For instance, her Egyptology courses (now her major at Brown) were taken from an Egyptologist. </p>

<p>But anyone who did any research before offering his opinion would know how homeschooling works. Someone who generalizes from one case -- where homeschooling allegedly didn't work and was abandoned -- to all the cases where it is continued because the individuals involved believe it is working is hardly a credible source on education.</p>

<p>And someone who deliberately searches out a place to bash people he knows nothing about is hardly a credible source on the social graces. Not to mention someone who tells us his "friend" has "no academic ability." </p>

<p>One can only wonder why homeschoolers do so much better on average in standardized testing and that they get into good colleges and do well, both academically and socially. People who are antihomeschooling have been trying for years to find evidence that is doesn't work or has some sort of dread consequences. They have been coming up blank. But, gee, why look at the evidence, when you can just generalize from one person and speculate about everything else?</p>

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<p>
[quote]
The people that teach me everyday are geniuses, and my parents would be unable to teach me AP level courses in Latin, English, science, and history better than my Ph.D. bearing teachers.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Myabe my school is just an exception, but I am almost certain that there is no teacher at my public school with a Ph.D. I'm not even sure if all of the honors teachers have masters degrees.</p>

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<p>It would seem to be rare for a school to have a high school teacher with a Ph.D. in the subject being taught, or even a masters. (I haven't run across any myself, but I have hardly surveyed the field). If they have masters, the ones I know had them in education. </p>

<p>I remember the first attempt at AP Biology at my son's private school, where the teacher couldn't answer any question outside the book and she never even got to animals, evolution, or ecology. He would have been better off taking the PAHomeschoolers course in the subject. (Of course, he had some good teachers, too. My point is that the homeschool experience is not inevitably worse.)</p>

<p>I wonder about all these genius Ph.D.'s stuck teaching high school. And how, at this most unusual school, none of the 2005 graduating class got into anywhere "decent," according to Paulus89's own post elsewhere. Perhaps the attitudes instilled there are not particularly attractive to those particular institutions ...</p>

<p>Sorry, I'm just getting a little peeved at our latest troll. Did you see the post that said homeschoolers don't deserve to go to Princeton, in response to someone posting that he/she hoped to do so?</p>

<p>OK, enough. I have to pack ...</p>

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<p>I don't particularly find it hard to believe that my English and history teachers have PhDs. All of the advanced level course have very intelligent and well qualified teachers. Our class of 2005 really didn't have any amazing college acceptances, with only one ivy league admission - Brown. It was rather shocking.</p>

<p>No offense, but homeschooling is really an inferior method of education.</p>

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<p>PHDs dont make good teachers by a long shot...or even a short shot! A great teacher isnt necessarily a genius in a subject area--but a genius in helping students learn and understand topics that aren't necessarily their expertise. The profs I had in college weren't all great teachers---they were great professors (meaning they were knowledgeable in their field). In Arizona you cannot teach a subject area unless you have a BA or masters in that field. Meaning---you cannot teach Physics unless you majored in Physics. </p>

<p>The majority of the teachers at my school have masters or PHDS (in education or education leadership) to go with their BAs in Education and (math, physics, english etc...). Yeah I got a Huuuuuge $2000 pay raise to get my masters and it only cost me $15,000 to get my masters! For an additional $1500 pay raise a year I can pay $25,000 and get my masters...lot of incentives there!</p>

<p>Kids--no matter their race, culture, social and education upbringing deserve whatever they dream of achieving. If a kid get's it done academically, they are getting it done--no matter how they go about it. </p>

<p>Sitting here today would I homeschool my unborn children? Probably not--I am a huge advocate for public schools and keeping the district I am in on top....would I disregard the option if my child needed that due to something that came up last minute? No. My only beef about homeschooling are the regulations surrounding it. I would like to see standards for homeschooled children and if they recieve a diploma---I hope that they had to go through the same steps as kids who went to class (with accomodations).</p>

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<p>The implication seems to be that homeschooled students accomplish less than students in the public school system. However, from what I have seen, this is very, very rarely the case. The reality is almost always to the contrary.</p>

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<p>critics of homeschooling frequently subscribe to the "pitcher" view of education. That is that all knowledge resides in the teacher, who then pours it, like a pitcher, into the students. Good education is about learning how to learn and how to marshal resources. An adult can model that for a young person with no knowledge at all of the subject under consideration. I certainly do not know, and did not "teach" my son much if any high level math or science during 12 years of homeschooling. But he is doing absolutely fine at MIT.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I'm sorry, but no parents are going to be able to replace the high school experience. You don't have your friends and you don't have the wide array of interesting and knowledgable teachers. The people that teach me everyday are geniuses, and my parents would be unable to teach me AP level courses in Latin, English, science, and history better than my Ph.D. bearing teachers.</p>

<p>Hey, if you don't want to benefit from being with others and learning from your peers - causing you to be socially maladjusted - feel free. I personally like being with other kids on my level and with teachers who know so much and offer so much to their students.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>LOL! I went to a public high school and it was just merely "okay." Not every school is good or great. I never had a teacher with a PhD in high school. This must be a recent trend...</p>

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<p>"Ok, so if you're an antisocial freak who can't handle being in school, you can be homeschooled."</p>

<p>Talk about judgemental...and as Susan said, there are kids in schools who cannot read or write worth a darn.</p>