Honest Parent Impressions of Reed College

Parents Forum
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<p>emeraldkity -</p>

<p>Kurt Cobain "committed suicide" when he was high. That pretty much negates the true suicide claim. Sure, he pulled the trigger. But when your brain is high on things like heroin, it isn't working properly. AT ALL. Knowing as much as I do about drug addiction, my opinion is that people do not "committ suicide" when they make the decision to do so when high. Of course, it depends on your definition of committing suicide. When a brain is bathed in opiates or meth, its decisionmaking apparatus is completely highjacked. And whether or not you agree that Cobain didn't really committ suicide, you'd have to acknowledge that drugs had an extremely destructive role in his life.</p>

<p>I can also assure you that kids who suffer from the disease of chemical dependency sometimes do glorify the drug life and early death of Cobain, Staley, and Hendrix. I have visited treatment centers in the Northwest (your "area"). I have spoken to young drug addicts who have attended Lakeside Milam, Sundown M, and Daybreak. Your area is no different than any other when it comes to an active disease of addiction in early-onset sufferers.</p>

<p>Perhaps reading "Tweak" by Nic Sheff will give you a clearer view of how people addicted to the most serious chemicals glorify and romanticize self-destructive drug use. You can also do a little myspace research. If you can find the pages of active smackers and tweakers, you'll often see pictures of their deceased celebrity heroes.</p>

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<p>spideygirl, with respect, what does the possible presence of pictures of deceased addicts on the web pages of "active smackers and tweakers" have to do Reed College? Are you saying that Reed students are "active smackers and tweakers"? Are you saying that the Reed student who has passed away had pictures of these celebrities or in some way was interested in them? </p>

<p>This thread is about Reed College, and about parent impressions of Reed. As a parent of a student at Reed (and someone who is "in the loop" about student feelings on this particular matter), I fail to see how your comments are connected to Reed students. The student in question didn't glorify or romanticize the people you're talking about. The student in question had been struggling with recovery. </p>

<p>The book <em>Tweak</em> is one person's personal narrative of drug experience. As such, I don't think it's an appropriate resource to use when generalizing about student drug use. Even the author's father -- who has also written a book about his son's use -- will tell you that.</p>

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<p>I think spideygirl is proving the point that we all have our "goggles", we spend time reading about and working with drug addicts, that is all we see whether it is " reality" or not.
We take the time to get to know people on a different level and it isn't so easy to put them in a box because we now see their differences.</p>

<p>I just reread the replies to the Willamette week article re the recent death ( apparently the student was addicted to heroin before he came to Reed) and I am very impressed by the cogent replies by current students and alums.</p>

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<p>TrinSF:</p>

<p>No, no, and NO.</p>

<p>I am reading about Reed and the drug incident there for very good reasons. Reed sounds like a totally great school to me - I was responding to a specific post made by Emeraldkity (which should have been obvious to you, by the way). I also made no statements about the particular student in question's interest in certain celebrities (and I also find it difficult to believe that you are an expert on what he thought about as well). You can jump to that conclusion if you wish, but that was not my statement. </p>

<p>In the throws of relapse (which, by the way, is when recovery STOPS), I can assure you, people sticking needles in their arms quite commonly romantacize drug use. Many former users will even wax on about the amazing feeling they have when they see the blood shoot back into the needle. I am not sticking my head out here - this is common stuff. General stuff. No one is saying, now, that this is happening at any particular place, but it will happen where hard drugs are injected.</p>

<p>I can see how a Reed parent reading this thread might be uncomfortable, but read carefully before jumping to conclusions. </p>

<p>Tweak is a great book for generalizing about meth or heroin use. No one said it was a good book for generalizing about "student drug use". Addiction and partying - two different things (although they sometimes intersect). Pot and alcohol or meth and heroin - very different things (yet all potentially dangerous). </p>

<p>Also, despite one's frustrations about a situation like this, it is not possible to control what people are going to think or feel about a topic, nor the direction a conversation may take.</p>

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<p>Im not uncomfortable reading the WW article because I know it is horsepucky, but I am curious that your posts are heavily weighted on CC by comments on drug/alcohol threads. Virtually all of them.</p>

<p>While your goggles give you the idea that drugs are an abyss that lures teens,my history as a former illegal drug user and knowing a few former drug users ( and I am not referring to only cocaine or pot), my viewpoint is the self destruction that some attempt would take place regardless- there will always be tools for that available if they choose to use them.</p>

<p>It's unfortunate that some people don't have good judgement about what they can or can't handle. Reed college for instance in Renn Fayre hosts what is reputed to be a fairly wild party, but there are structures and safety nets in place.
I think some of us are risk takers more than others, and who is to say taking psychedelics in an environment where others are available as resources is any more risky than doing something like jumping out of an airplane or charter fishing in Alaska?
After all look how long the chemist who discovered LSD lived! How many of us think we will live till we are 102?</p>

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<p>emeraldkity: "your posts are heavily weighted on CC by comments on drug/alcohol threads. Virtually all of them."</p>

<p>Not "virtually all of them" (curious why this is relevant, though). Recently, lots more than not, though. I got into a few debates with posts which were defending the choice to smoke pot as a not-necessarily-so-unhealthy thing to do. I wanted to post what I have heard and seen about the drug, for balance. I think that is a good thing. BTW, it really surprises me that with all of the brilliant people here on CC, I have come across so many opinions which are are either myopic, ill-informed, or dangerously nostalgic about drugs.</p>

<p>emeraldkity: "It's unfortunate that some people don't have good judgement about what they can or can't handle...I think some of us are risk takers more than others, and who is to say taking psychedelics in an environment where others are available as resources is any more risky than doing something like jumping out of an airplane or charter fishing in Alaska?
After all look how long the chemist who discovered LSD lived! How many of us think we will live till we are 102?"</p>

<p>Man, I don't even know what to say to this.</p>

<p>OK - here goes. Risk-taking and addiction...once again, two different things. And it is as much of a shame that drug addicts don't know what they can handle as it is a shame that the brain's of Alzheimer's patients produce plaque. Addiction is a mental illness, and probably due to a dopamine deficiency. It has nothing to do with knowing what you can or cannot handle.</p>

<p>These really are two different conversations.</p>

<p>As for LSD...don't do it. Do broccoli, Do yoga. Do marathon running. Don't do LSD.</p>

<p>(Is the fact that a guy who did LSD and also lived past 100 supposed to support an argument here?)</p>

<p>One last thing...I am not sure that it is logical to defend an illegal substance which has the potential to do permanent brain damage with sports that carry short-term physical risk. On so many levels.</p>

<p>But back to the original subject of this thread...</p>

<p>Reed College, any college, or even the upstairs bedrooms in our safe homes...They are all places where a drug addict can OD. When it comes to opiate addiction, even a person with 2 or 3 years of clean and sober recovery can still have a high percentage chance of relapse (I have read 60 and 33% respectively for those time periods). Addiction is an insidious disease, and I think that if it didn't carry such a stigma, we'd be busier fundraising for a cure (just like with other diseases, like MS or cancer).</p>

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<p>There are actually several cures for alcoholism. None have a 100% effective rate though. However, that is true of many cures. </p>

<p>1) Don't ever drink again. No side effects from that. Difficult to do, but it works for many people.
2) Drugs that make you sick if you do drink.
3) Therapy of various kinds.</p>

<p>Spideygirl, I would hazard a guess that you have seen some of the nastier side effects of addiction. Despite that, as EK4 says, many people who once did drugs (or continue to do drugs) (or drink occasionally to excess) lead long and happy lives.</p>

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<p>I think the original topic of the thread was just parental impressions of Reed.</p>

<p>I wasn't really aware of Reed growing up in the Northwest- my parents and most of their friends had all attended the UW, although after I grew up I moved to the same neighborhood ( and the same gym) as the daughter of one of my parents friends who were Reed alums " class of 50" I think .</p>

<p>They had done very well and had sent one of their sons to Reed.( who I think then is on the board of the alumni assc)</p>

<p>I only started to become aware of the college, when our neighbor who I thought highly of, thinking he was one of the best dads Ive ever seen, said that he had gone to Reed, and when I asked if it was really expensive- since I knew that his parents hadn't had much money, he said he had good aid. </p>

<p>That was the start of realizing that colleges might even " give" you money to attend. Which was a new thing for me- I had thought if you weren't able to start a savings account before they were born you were SOL. ( I didn't even know about govt loans)</p>

<p>But then Reedies started coming out of the woodwork. A woman who we have known for almost 20 years and was a prof at Ann Arbor and now at NYU is a Reedie. I wore a Reed t-shirt to the gym and an older woman said that her daughter who is a prof at Harvard, attended Reed-
She had married a Russian man who actually * was * a communist, so that aspect of Reed in the 50s was a plus when their daughter attended.
( Ive noticed that some people also think John Reed either founded Reed or it was named after him- after all he was born in Portland :rolleyes: )</p>

<p>When adults my age ( and who have kids the same age) heard that my daughter was going to attend Reed- they were thrilled. They told me that they had wanted to attend, but their parents/grandparents wouldn't let them.
Their own kids thought it was too small/too close to home although despite the small size of Ds high school, several kids did also choose Reed.</p>

<p>It's definitely a school you have to visit- and I admit we didn't visit many liberal arts colleges because of the cost, but it is the kind of place that no matter how much you like it when you are there, you don't really appreciate everything that you learned until later. ( but then isn't that true with a lot of things )</p>

<p>Despite the scare stories that I heard about Reed, I had confidence in my daughter and rumors that the CSOs were there to keep Portland police out during events like Renn Fayre didn't bother me as much as other schools where I noticed so many grammatical and logical errors in the student publications and even on posters that I wondered about the academics.
Academics were not something I worried about re: Reed.</p>

<p>( I also noticed that on the replies to the WW article a student who had to transfer out of Reed, appreciated their academic rigor and lack of hand holding because it gave her the kick in the pants that she needed)</p>

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<p>dmd77: Just wondering what you mean exactly by "cure" to alcoholism. Yes, the things you mention relieve the symptoms of the disease, but I know very few recovering alcoholics who claim to be "cured" from the disease. Rather, they are "in recovery." </p>

<p>To me, the idea of "cured" evokes the image of a person being able to drink again in a controlled, reasonable manner. I think this is very rare for the alcoholic.</p>

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<p>Ah, banana... a useful distinction.</p>

<p>By cure I meant "no more symptoms." I suppose "remission" would be a better word. </p>

<p>You can stop all symptoms of alcoholism--the personality changes, the self-abuse, the liver degradation, etc.--with a single treatment: no more booze. I suppose that's not a "cure" in the sense that one is still an addict, but no one talks about former heroin addicts being able to drink again, so to me the point is moot.</p>

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<p>dmd77: " a single treatment: no more booze"</p>

<p>Ah - there's the rub! If it were that easy, about 1 in 10 people would not suffer from the disease of addiction some time throughout their lives. </p>

<p>Addiction is a disease which speaks to you in your own voice. It is unique in that accessing a substance external to your body causes the damage. That is what makes it "baffling". </p>

<p>With a little imagination, however, it is easy to see how the brain accessing alcohol is no different than malfuntioning cells in the body accessing the chemicals necessary to form plaque (or whatever biological garbage is used to damage the brain of a patient with MS or Alzheimer's). "Just don't drink or do drugs anymore and you'll be cured" is like telling the pancreas, "Just produce the right amount of insulin. Then you'll work properly". </p>

<p>Yet the brain is a weird organ - it can reason. HOWEVER, THE DISEASE AFFECTS THE REASONING PART OF THE BRAIN! What a complex illness. Long before an addict picks up, little decisions start to be made which lead a person down the wrong path. It is rarely a sudden decision just to pick up a drink. Knowing that many successful, good people have chosen a drink over taking care of their own children helps to put the strength of the compulsion into perspective.</p>

<p>Overcoming this disease is so difficult that when a person has a bad case (perhaps even less dopamine than the average sufferer), it can take multiple relapses and near-death experiences before the abject suffering finally causes the person to wage a successful fight. Standing in the middle of a battlefield strewn with loss and destruction, the chronic sufferer may finally be able to stop.</p>

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<p>Spideygirl: my MIL died from her alcoholism after 12 sessions of full-on residential treatment. Two of her three children have chosen never to touch alcohol as a result of her experiences; they may in fact be addicts but show no symptoms.</p>

<p>You're absolutely correct that addiction is difficult to deal with. Nonetheless, the treatment of never drinking again does work for alcoholism. I didn't say it was easy; I did say it worked. However, I think not drinking again may be easier than going through some cures for other diseases--like daily insulin shots or chemo.</p>

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<p>My husband is an alcoholic. He is in " Recovery.
He hasn't had a drink for about 12 years.
His father is an active alcoholic, although he has quit smoking tobacco, which I have heard can be even more difficult.
* His* father ( who would have been my grandfather in law) was an alcoholic as was the grandfather on my MIL side of the family.</p>

<p>I didn't have any alcoholics in my family that I was aware of, although my grandmother told me that * her* FIL drank and that one of her brothers in law was an alcoholic- which apparently was why she forbid my grandfather to drink ever ( although H & I did sneak him apricot brandy at xmas- )</p>

<p>My H still smokes- he has quit many times once even for three years.
I used to smoke. I quit when they went up to $.75 a pack, I thought that was too expensive.All I had to do when I quit smoking was decide to.
(I can do the same thing when I go to bed, I just tell myself when I want to wake up and I do. Unfortunately, those are the only areas where self suggestion works ;) )</p>

<p>I drink occasionally, H is fine with that- it apparently doesn't bother him. ( he did go through treatment and went to AA for a while)
I agree that once you stop doing something you were addicted to, you can't ever do it again.
However- if you look at people like me, who have tried all kinds of substances and frankly, some of them were pretty fun, but was never addicted to them- you have to wonder exactly how my brain differed.</p>

<p>I was fine with my daughter attending Reed, despite her genetic history, although she did choose to live in subfree.
Her main reasoning, was that we hoped the dorms would be more sedate than dorms where students used alcohol.
( and for those who insist that all freshman dorm are subfree- I not only remind them of their own college days, but that tobacco is also a substance and for those with asthma/allergies, it is a problem)
Some of the kids who lived in subfree has a history of alcoholism either themelves or in their families. Others just wanted maybe a quieter living space or sometimes it was just where space was available.</p>

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<p>dmd77: "However, I think not drinking again may be easier than going through some cures for other diseases--like daily insulin shots or chemo"</p>

<p>To me it would seem so, but to a person with a five star version of addiction? Not so sure. </p>

<p>It is important to remember that the disease of addiction comes in different degrees and versions. Like cancer, it is all the same illness. On the other hand, there are different types and extremes. It is therefore difficult to compare the experience of one individual or family's battle with another's.</p>

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<p>emeraldkity4: "you have to wonder exactly how my brain differed"</p>

<p>Yes - we do need to know that type of information for addiction medicine to advance, because your brain is very different from people who suffer from a bad case of addiction. Thank God for you. And for me, because I was genetically lucky as well.</p>

<p>Re: Substance-free dorms. I think they sound great, but I also believe that for young people who have the disease, it really isn't that much help. It's probably better than regular dorms, however. I have heard that people in substance-free housing are there for a variety of different reasons, at all schools. Sometimes the parents made the decision to go that route. </p>

<p>I think that kids who have a most serious version of the disease should consider recovery schools. Case Western, Texas Tech*, UC Boulder, UT Austin, Rutgers, Augsberg, and Brown all have versions of being one. Since addiction is on every campus, and because it is a disability, I think all colleges should have the legal and moral obligation to develop a recovery program which includes housing. This would be a bigger thing than a substance free dorm. It's a whole program including couseling, meetings, academic oversight, and the like. It may sound like a lot, but it is necessary. If someone is in a wheelchair, they deserve for us to build them a ramp. If someone suffers from the disease of addiction, they too deserve accomodations which make it possible to access education (accomodations which support them in helping themselves).</p>

<p>*has a model which can be easily used by other colleges</p>

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<p>Not that I don't find the discussion of heroin addiction interestering, but this is the kind of thread tangent that is highly, highly unfair to Reed College, IMO.</p>

<p>From here to eternity, a prospect searching College Confidential for Reed is going to stumble across this thread and think that, if they go to Reed, they'll get addicted to hard drugs and die like Jimi Hendrix or Kurt Cobain.</p>

<p>That's not fair to Reed.</p>

<p>The moderators should consider changing the title of this thread to more accurately reflect where it ended up.</p>

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<p>*Not that I don't find the discussion of heroin addiction interestering, but this is the kind of thread tangent that is highly, highly unfair to Reed College, IMO.</p>

<p>From here to eternity, a prospect searching College Confidential for Reed is going to stumble across this thread and think that, if they go to Reed, they'll get addicted to hard drugs and die like Jimi Hendrix or Kurt Cobain.</p>

<p>That's not fair to Reed.</p>

<p>The moderators should consider changing the title of this thread to more accurately reflect where it ended up.
*</p>

<p>I would agree.</p>

<p>I have tried to discuss my daughters experience @ Reed- which we have been very happy with- and even though anyone who has seen me trying to go about my day will be amazed at how sidetracked I can get ;) :D :o
I honestly have been trying to bring it back on track of sifting out rumor and hyperbole from experience.</p>

<p>I knew nothing about Reed before I had kids, little until they were much older, and I have found that people are in two camps. ( ok three because there are also those who are not familiar with it at all)
Those who love controversy and sensational rumours and love to paint it as a place for " rich eggheads who spend their trust funds on drugs", and those who know something about it ( often themselves in academia) and they are very , very impressed and fond of Reed.</p>

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<p>Yes...I was going to ask whether Reed has, generally, a more liberal attitude toward drugs & alcohol than other campuses? </p>

<p>I was going to look into that school for son as a possibility (it's in "Colleges that Change Lives"). But don't want more-than-the-usual negative social experiences....</p>

<p>(sorry if this question was answered earlier...couldn't seem to spot an answer though...thanks).</p>

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<p>They don't have a lot of partying- on campus that I have ever heard or seen
Not every weekend or really even every month.
Some schools don't even have friday classes so parties start on thur night- Reed is foremost a college not a social club.</p>

<p>From looking at schools both big and small & private and not- there is not more drug alcohol use @ Reed, and the honor code is taken very seriously.( see earlier in thread)</p>

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<p>I have not attended or had children attend Reed. I know about 4 present or fairly recently graduated students.
I know one Heroin Addict in recovery. This person is a Reed graduate. From the conversations I have had with this person I don't think he/she blames the school. The student came into college without any substance abuse history. Not a partier in high school. Had the first drink of life at college freshman year. In their opinion they were unlucky enough to end up with the addiction gene. Felt like they drank unhealthy from the first time. Interestly for this person they do not feel the compulsion to drink often or even everytime they are around alcohol. But when they do begin drinking cannot stop till blackout.Experimented with different drugs. Was introduced to heroin by a fellow student.
Graduated got a good job in Portland. Moved in with the fellow student. Both addicted to heroin. The person I know feels lucky to have made it to recovery without losing everything. They did lose respect of family and friends but did not lose a job or everything financially. The person is 2 yrs sober and has not felt like they can return to Portland. When I met this person I had no clue she was a recovering addict.
They felt that they would have ended up an addict wherever they had gone to school. They did feel like if they had been at another college they might have been kicked out and possibly have gotten help earlier.
A cousin goes to Reed. She is openly a pot smoker as is her father and mother also Reed graduates. Both parents highly successful in life.
Two other Reed students I know of appear to both be anti drug for themselves but openminded to others.
No one knows if they are going to have an addictive personality. My child with ADD and poor impulse control we felt was not a good candidate for schools that had more of a party rep. Fully realizing that parties happen at all schools. We vetoed a few schools such as SDSU and Chico based on those reasons alone. Also after visiting one Pacific NW school and coming across a couple of students talking about cooking up Meth we were happy he didn't end up at that school. (Which happens to be a great school but probably not a great fit for my kid)</p>