<p>I would like to add that I know several members of the current EC and hold nothing but respect for those individuals. I trust in their judgment much more than in a random poster who for all we know could be the accused (and convicted) him/herself.</p>
<p>Not that it matters now . . . apparently the accused student has chosen to withdraw from the University rather than face a hearing. I see no reason to continue this discussion just because someone bitter about a case is using the veil of anonimity to rant.</p>
<p>This all comes down to the W&L Honor Code - not to lie, cheat,steal or show behavior unbecoming......... - all unacceptalbe behaviors - and what it actually stands for and the system which it represents. </p>
<p>EC proceedings - judicial recourse - are confidential issues/matters - and are handled in a democratic fashion - not in a public forum - based on the Honor Code. Attempting to 'discuss' or to 'speculate' what truth/untruth one may feel - in this manner - is wrong and counter-productive. Further remarks on this forum - could well be considered breaches of that long standing code as well.</p>
<p>TheGFG: The qualities I see lacking in many students are
1) being genuinely interested in things other than studying and partying. And if they are interested in something that may be perceived as "uncool" in any way, they try to cover it up to act cool. They are overly concerned about their outward appearance; in this regard it is a lot like HS. That's the number one thing I wanted to get AWAY from in coming to college, but I just get a whole lot more of it.
2) This sort of goes along with the first... unique, exciting experienceds in front of drinking. If you have a once-in-a-lifetime chance to see a speaker at the top of his field, a musician from India (who has played with Bela Fleck), etc., why not attend that event? You can drink ANY night. Instead of scheduling partying around other more important and unique events, people schedule unique events around partying. This causes kids to really miss out on what the college experience should be-- exposing yourself to many different cultures, ideas, etc.
3) (building off 2) Open-mindedness, political and otherwise. I am a Libertarian. That basically means I want to return to the ideals our country was founded upon-- it mostly has a conservative leaning, but with a strong support for some socially liberal ideas-- pro choice, gay rights, etc. There are many kids (on both sides) who can't see the merits of the other side's argument. To be able to truly believe something, you must be able to see why another person can think differently. I reaffirmed this notion in my Philosophy 195-- The Concept of Honor seminar, with Dr. Sessions. He is a great professor-- I recomment taking at least one of his classes.</p>
<p>So the overarching theme is that of outward appearance. People are too concerned with conforming (God, I hate that word-- my HS was full of "non-conformists" who I couldn't wait to get away from-- but I must use it) and being cool that they actually make themselves less interesting people than they really are. That being said, I'm still totally respected and liked by a good amount of the student body, and I consider myself to not fit the standard W&L mold. It CAN be done.</p>
<p>And yeah, I completely agree with Dima -- I actually know a lot of details about the case (from people very close to both parties involved) and the EC made a proper judgment based on explicit evidence. There's more I could say about personal character, but I don't want to defame the accused in a public forum, as she has done to the school.</p>
<p>HereWeGo, if you are who I think you are, then let me begin by saying that this is James from Chinese. I don't know everything about the whole EC deal, but it sucks that people are gone. However, I would recommend this school for those people who value justice and integrity, not just because this school does a pretty good job at trying to be fair to everyone and because the Honor System usually works out just fine, but also because there needs to be more honor-minded people here. There's a large segment of the student population that feels there's some very big problems with the school, in particular its treatment of underage drinking as socially acceptable. This by itself wouldn't be as big a deal, except this school claims to pursue honor in all it does, and it definately doesn't. More than once I have uttered that the great Robert E. Lee is turning in his grave.</p>
<p>That being said, I give this school my highest recommendation. Why? It's a long story, but basically: This school is probably the greatest liberal arts college in America, both academically and socially. The problems it faces aren't because people go out of their way to screw things up, it's because people near the top in the administration don't understand the consequences of their actions, and there isn't enough imputus to change how things work here socially. However, that is changing on a variety of fronts, and it is a very exciting time to be part of this large, fundemental change in social life at W&L. This school does hold honor in high regard, and Lord knows, it tries to be fair. The community of trust this school has is amazing and may very well be second to none.</p>
<p>However, I won't be seeing any class of 2010 posters next fall, because I myself am transferring to West Point. W&L simply isn't what I want, and what I want is a military education.</p>
<p>If any of you have questions, feel free to IM me on AIM, my sn is Skirbyy</p>
<p>SKIRBYY - your post says alot of what is supposed to be understood regarding W&L - tho is often missed by many. Honor is pretty much the founding reasons why W&L exists today - education not-with-standing - what W&L was founded on and the why of it - is held in high regard by the many who ''get it''.</p>
<p>Thank you for your open and honest approach - W&L is changing - slowly - it is difficult to change what has stood soo strong for a couple of hundred years. For those who ''get it'' - it is an experience - second to none in all respects. You sound as tho you have experienced the good that W&L has to offer - and understand it as well. You have made a mature assessment of what W&L really is and how things 'work' there - even tho you are leaving - I am sure you will take great lessons learned with you.</p>
<p>It certainly sounds as tho you have made a choice that will afford you opportunities that are not available at W&L. Congrats to you on your acceptance to West Point. You will be leaving W&L a better person than when you started - with a great understanding of what you are looking for - and what it really means - HONOR.</p>
<p>I believe a significant part of the reason W&L has such a strong Honor Code is due to the namesake. Not only was General Lee the president of W&L, he served as the Superintendant of USMA. He was also one of very few cadets who never got a demerit.</p>
<p>We all think it's funny that our child made the rank of General before the AD dad.</p>
<p>Interesting that there is no current student poster on the CC board for W&L who claims to "fit the mold" being criticized here (i.e., too busy studying and drinking to attend concerts or lectures, or otherwise just railroading fellow students). Yet there seem to be so many more of those than the students we are hearing from, according to the accounts we are reading. Hmmmm . . .
although I was never good at math, even I have to wonder. </p>
<p>Any chance of hearing from a student in the maligned majority?</p>
<p>Esquette-probably not. Though I can see what I can do about that. Dima and Morgan-stop by and tell me who you think epitmizes the W&L majority culture.</p>
<p>Motherdear: I hope I join the 2% club... leaving her here was turned out to be one of the hardest parts about coming to the decision to leave. Any advice on staying together?</p>
<p>Fortunately for me (and unfortunately for those of you who want to hear from the drunken majority), neither my friends, my roommates, nor my fraternity brothers fit that mold. My friends and my roommate don't drink and many of my fraternity brothers spent tonight at a senior composition showcase where one of the two senior men whose work was being showcased is a brother.</p>
<p>You will see once you get to campus that people who prefer certain lifestyles end up congregating together and joining certain fraternities, so there is almost always a place where you fit in.</p>
<p>I'm so glad you're still dating your hs sweetheart! BTW, you are ineligible for membership if you met in college even if it's before Beast. It doesn't count if you met after hs.</p>
<p>My advice is: communication. We used oldfashioned snail mail when H and I were at schools 8 hours apart. Email is quick, but a real letter is wonderful. We still have the boxes of correspondence in our attic.</p>
<p>A military marriage or even a long-distance relationship will only be successful if you are both somewhat independent and have outside interests to keep you busy. So if the girl is in a sorority, don't worry about her participating in mixers w/ other fraternities while you're in the frozen Hudson tundra. </p>
<p>An officer's wife has to maintain the status quo when the officer is deployed on the far side of the world. Obviously West Point isn't comparable to Iraq but the girlfriend can't fall apart every time you have to depart.</p>
<p>I have lots more. PM me w/ any question or have your gf pm me for "womanly" advice.</p>
<p>Esquette, I can give you both sides of the story-- I guess you could say I "fit the mold" during Fall Term-- I have a lot of friends who definitely represent the stereotype, and I would go out with them all the time (but I'd still make an effort to attend important events). I just reflected on my experience after Fall Term and realized that I have a plethora of passionate interests and activities which I have excelled at, and I don't want to lose them in favor of the same old standard fare parties. Whenver there's a good BAND party, I make sure to go-- some fraternities bring some pretty decent bands that I enjoy seeing. But if the standard Kelly Clarkson will be pumping out of the DJ's PA system to please the girls with horrible taste in music (and wow, there are a lot of them), you won't be seeing me there.</p>
<p>Haha, I obviously attend every infamous sketchy latenight put on by your fraternity and your honorary brother, DJ Dwayne. I enjoy his techno remixes and his lights.</p>
<p>Dima, MorganGH, did not mean to offend you in any way! I truly appreciate hearing everything you have to say, no matter how you view yourself vis-a-vis "the majority." You have been an invaluable resource for those of us who want to hear the current conversations. Thanks.</p>
<p>Skirbyy, sounds like you have made a well considered decision. As the dtr of a member of the USNA Class of 44, I honor and appreciate your decision to serve all of us. Thank you.</p>
<p>My intent was merely to note that, with 50% of the posters on this thread planning to transfer from W&L after a year, there must be some other current students out there who might share their experiences and perspectives . . . not necessarily drunken ones though!</p>
<p>Oh, don't worry; I didn't take any offense at all. It was a perfectly legitimate thing to ask. Sorry if my post came off that way.</p>
<p>I hesitate whenever I write negative things about the school, because while they are true, I don't want to turn away any good people who would make the school so much better. The SCHOOl itself really is amazing; we just need some more diverse and unique people here to make it even better.</p>
<p>I agree with morgan's quote "we just need some more diverse and unique people here to make it even better". I think W&L would be a MUCH better school with a little more diversity - and that's coming from a white girl who grew up in a verrry white neighborhood. I was discussing some things with a black male professor of mine and he told me that he thought W&L had a hard time recruiting all minorities, but that their biggest failure is in recruiting minority WHITE students, that is to say, white students from different backgrounds and of different mindsets than the usual wealthy, southern, conservatives. I don't think W&L realizes this lacking in it's student body, but I wholeheartedly agree that it would make a huge difference.</p>
<p>HERE I guess I disagree with you on something - the white minority description - and - the usual wealthy - southern - conservative.......... My guy - and all of his friends are just NOT that - white - yes - but the rest does not fit that bill by any means - none of them are even close - and I am not talking about just a few guys - but a fairly large group.............</p>
<p>Diversity has been a big problem at W&L for a long time and I agree it still needs fixin. The how is the big question.</p>
<p>It certainly makes me wonder if most folks at W&L think the students are from wealthy families - not true at all - yes - quite a few are - but there are many who are not.</p>
<p>"their biggest failure is in recruiting minority WHITE students"</p>
<p>That's a very insightful comment and captures in a nutshell my S's impression when he visited. He's technically a minority, but is the Hispanic equivalent of an oreo. (Is there a word for that?) Anyway, he noted that there seemed to be two main types of students and no more. Since he didn't feel as though he'd fit well socially with either one, he chose not to enroll. We were disappointed because other than this apparent flaw, W& L seemed to be a fabulous school!</p>
<p>When I said diverse, I was not inherently implying minority students-- as HereWeGo touched on. There is plenty of diversity among white people in America, which is just not represented here. I think when people come in, they are pretty different, but because of fraternities molding their pledgeclasses to be the same type of person, you end up seeing a lot of homogeneity, natural or not. </p>
<p>JeepMOM-- it's not just white Southern conservatives-- it's the New Jersey, Maryland lacrosse playing private school kids who are really taking over the school.</p>
<p>The GFG-- too bad to hear your son's not coming. I feel just like your son-- I don't completely fit with either group, as I'm definitely not a total study nerd/ bookworm type person, but I'm also not a hardcore partier. It's funny how often people don't come here because of that reason. If all these awesome diverse students just ended up all deciding to come, it would fix the problem.</p>