Honestly now...

Colleges and Universities A-Z Washington & Lee University
141

<p>Excellent analogy to administrative law. The EC actually exemplifies some of the common problems with administrative agencies - some of which have been overruled by the Supreme Court. It is my understanding that the same person cannot, on different occasions, act as a prosecutor and then a judge. </p>

<p>That is what I was aiming for when I suggested bifurcating the EC into an investigative unit and a judge unit. </p>

<p>(On a side note, I thought that deference to agency decision-making was limited; certainly, there is Chevron deference to agency expertise, but there is also Mead or intermediate deference when the issue on appeal is not one in which the agency has expertise but is rather more of a legal question. I am almost certain that there is de novo review for EC decisions at W&L; however, the increased punishment that comes from a student body hearing is a deterrent to the appeal.)</p>

142

<p>How else could you get a wristband w/o showing something that says you're 21? Not that I'm planning to try this of course...</p>

<p>Are they going to sit us down and specifically teach us what is and isn't a violation? There seems to be a lot of ambiguity.</p>

143

<p>Everyone should read the article, "The Honor System and Alcoholism" on page 7 of today's issue of the Ring-Tum Phi. It perfectly expresses the fragile state the honor system is in right now due to student apathy.</p>

144

<p>Morgan, that article seems to be based a lot on hearsay. All I know is you would have had to get up pretty early to pregame a hearing which you would have essentially had to get in line by 7:30AM. But I do think you hit the nail squarely on the head in that student apathy is in my opinion a big problem on this campus (more on this in my final point). I'm starting to think it's a conservative thing - making your voice heard and wanting change in policy is seen as a liberal thing to do by many people, and thus against the idea of going to a conservative college.</p>

<p>Laxer, that is exactly what they should do - have an EC representative sit down with each hall and their DC and explain what is and is not an Honor Violation, using examples of things that hav been considered HV's in the past, like using a fake ID. Unfortunately this does not happen and this leads to confusion and ambiguity.</p>

<p>Current (and incoming) W&L students - the EC meetings do have an open part when you could voice your concerns. How many of the current students on this board complaining about the Honor System have actually done that?</p>

145

<p>I know I haven't, Dima. Perhaps the EC could put up a simple campus notice or a few flyers to remind students that there is an open session. Kind of looks like they'd rather keep it a secret...</p>

146

<p>Dima, I heard many many people talking about getting up at 7AM to start drinking. They were most definitely going to do it.</p>

147

<p>Can y'all post the RTP article? They haven't given us our email addresses yet to have it sent.</p>

148

<p>Quoth a Campus Notice that the EC puts up each and every Monday:
"There will be an EC meeting tonight at 7:00 in room 122 of the
Earling Fielding Memorial Building. Please come to express any
concerns or questions."</p>

<p>Morgan, if that is true - I am amazed. I can't even get up at 7AM to go to class, that is some dedication.</p>

149

<p>As a last note on the absurdity of the EC Closed Hearings- only 2/3 of the EC or in an Open Hearing- only 2/3 of the jury has to find you guilty for you to be guilty. Could you imagine if only 2/3 of your peers found you guilty of murder and you were sentenced to death knowing there was a possiblity others believed you were innocent? That is our current system. And Dima, you will find me there next Monday. Thats a fact.</p>

150

<p>Article anyone?</p>

151

<p>Laxer, the Ring-Tum Phi doesn't have a website. It's not too long, so I can type it up for you tomorrow. I gotta go to bed now, though.</p>

152

<p>While, yes, there are law students on this committee, it's worth mentioning that the majority of people are under the age of 21 and have zero formal training in law or jurisprudence. It's not quite a high school honor council, but from my experiences - even with a law student as a President - this would be over their heads. Also, personally, I think it greatly overestimates their desire to pursue what's best for the honor system. What's best for the honor system isn't always what's best for the EC and usually that latter wins out. </p>

<p>As far as waking up to pregame, if we're talking spring term, I would think it's less an issue of waking up and more like not ending the party from the night prior.</p>

153

<p>well said wnlalum, well said.</p>

154

<p>Oh Boy, was this an intense thread or what???</p>

<p>Good times, good times.</p>

<p>(Oh, I swear I didn't just reply to this thread to let some new CC-ers check it out.)</p>

<p>(Oh wait, that was a lie)
AKA "Honor Violation" ?????</p>

155

<p>OKAY. I realize i am incredibly late replaying to this thread, and I admit that I didn't read the last 5 pages of it, but I feel I have to say some things.</p>

<p>I may or may not be what people are referring to as "the majority:" I AM in a srat (and I love it), I DO go out most nights of the week to party, I probably do have terrible taste in music, I don't go to many concerts, etc etc etc, and I do love this school.</p>

<p>I would like to point out, though, that next year (this year?) I will be living in Woods Creek Apts in order NOT to surround myself only with girls from my sorority, and I will be living with another girl from my sorority, 2 independents, and a girl from a different sorority. One of the problems I definitely see in W&L is that before Rush, everyone hangs out together, and after Rush, it gets very clique-y. KDs hang out with KDs, Phi Psis hang out with Phi Psis and Independents hang out with Independents. While it's true most of my friends ended up in the same srat as myself, I still have friends who are independent, or in another srat, and there are girls in every single sorority whom I would consider myself friends with. However, it seems that many girls only hang out with those like themselves. While there are no rivalries, there seem to be few deep friendships reaching across srat-boundaries, and that's a shame. (I do think this might change as everyone gets older, though. The last two terms of Freshman Year, most people seem to be so excited to be part of a frat/srat that it consumes them. As it is less new, it may get less clique-y, but I don't know).</p>

<p>It's true that I go to few concerts, but this is because I don't particularly enjoy concerts, and there was no one that came to W&L that I was a huge fan of.</p>

<p>It's also true that I go out to parties many nights of the week, but I, and my friends, have no problems with saying "I have a project / paper / test / etc tomorrow, I can't go out tonight." Anyone who doesn't do that won't find themselves at W&L very long. That is to say, partying is a big deal, but studying and school comes first.</p>

<p>I have no problem whatsoever with the Honor System. I love that at W&L I can leave all my stuff, including as computer or iPod, sitting in the commons and come back an hour or so later to find all my stuff neatly put aside so that someone else could work at my table, but nothing missing. I also love that all the floors in all the dorms are open to anyone, and no one locks their room. Trust like that (and the ability to do things like schedule your own finals) is in some ways more important to me than the lofty ideals (but then maybe I'm just a shallow srat-bot who doesn't care about anything but drinking and her appearance).</p>

<p>So there it is, an opinion from your much-hated majority. I know I'm pretty late for this, but I just thought I'd stick my two-cents in.</p>

156

<p>We just visited W&L, and went in "cold" without researching the school in general and I certainly hadn't seen this thread prior to our visit. </p>

<p>During the info session I was very careful not to convey any negative "vibes" to my son, as I try very hard not to influence his opinion of a school and let him decide for himself. </p>

<p>After the info session my son wanted to leave without even going on the tour, but my wife and I insisted on staying for the tour since we had come a long way to see the school. </p>

<p>Every college we have ever visited has an honor code, and several colleges (Connecticut College comes to mind) mention the honor code as the overriding outstanding feature of the institution. However, I don't recall any other schools that have a single sanction. I immediately found that troubling, and suggested that taking a stick of gum from a friend without asking permission could be construed as an honor code violation and result in expulsion. Much to my surprise I learn that my extreme fabricated scenario may actually be close to reality. The fact that the honor code lets the students live in a crime-free utopia of unproctored exams and unlocked bicycles strikes me as poor preparation for living in the real world where a little caution, street smarts, and watching out for your stuff is a good thing. </p>

<p>So, no big deal, W&L is not a good fit for my son. Apparently many highly qualified students love the place. BTW, according to the Trident there will be a faculty advisor/observer on the EC (is that what you call it?) going forward. </p>

<p>The main reason I am posting here is to ask what exactly (or not exactly, but can I hear more than "lying") was the crime comitted by the most recent offender (a girl?) and what did Gabe Katz do to get expelled?</p>

157

<p>My H's school has an Honor Code and many students over the last 204 years have been found on an Honor Violation. Of course his school is the one from which General Lee graduated.</p>

158

<p>Although the Service Academies, including General Lee's beloved West Point all have strong Honor Codes, they do not have the "single sanction" feature found in W&L's Honor Code. They also now have some degree of administration oversight/review, so they are not wholly "student run".</p>

159

<p>"The fact that the honor code lets the students live in a crime-free utopia of unproctored exams and unlocked bicycles strikes me as poor preparation for living in the real world where a little caution, street smarts, and watching out for your stuff is a good thing."</p>

<p>Don't be so cynical NJres. Maybe if Bob Torricelli, John Lynch, Jim McGreevey, Wayne Bryant and other state leaders had gone to W&L, New Jersey wouldn't be the cesspool of corruption it is today.</p>

160

<p>
[quote]
The fact that the honor code lets the students live in a crime-free utopia of unproctored exams and unlocked bicycles strikes me as poor preparation for living in the real world where a little caution, street smarts, and watching out for your stuff is a good thing.

[/quote]

Except that proctored exams are hardly indicative of the real world! As for unlocked bicycles - well, there are lots of things that happen in the "real world," but that's never been a justification for having it in college. Rape, assault, divorce, child support, mortgages, and lawsuits happen in the real world, but we try to make college safe so that people don't have to live that way. It's more than unlocked bicycles - it's spending four years being able to trust the people around you. </p>

<p>That said, a single sanction honour code is difficult.</p>