Honestly now...

Colleges and Universities A-Z Washington & Lee University
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<p>I find it interesting, no matter what school, that some have instant vibes.</p>

<p>S and I visited 4 schools over 3 days. I also believe in gutchecks but want some reasons for the gut feelings.</p>

<p>Something about Davidson left us cold. Maybe it was the awful breakfast we had at the "downtown" coffee shop. Bad coffee, perhaps? Omelet made in oil rather than butter? Who knows? It wasn't that it was baad, just that it didn't have what we'd been led to believe. Wouldn't object to going there, but wouldn't be first choice. Good looking grounds but the kids seem smug--maybe all the publicity is going to their heads?</p>

<p>Wake was really interesting. Campus deserted with the football game against Clemson. Great school grounds--entrance like a country club. Grounds like a country club. Kids not as flashy as Vandy but just by a shade. Vibe was good.</p>

<p>Then we hit W&L. Instant great vibe without saying a word. Give S the honor code any day. Most impressive walking around with books, computers, bikes, mind cells left unlocked. Kids incredibly informative and helpful, the greeting mode while not uniformly present was impressive. Some undefinable, unquantifiable quality put this one at the top. I made S write down the positives for the school and the negatives he could think of. I added some additional like "can't visit when you feel like it" as it costs too much to fly--the flip side being that mom and dad can't pop in whenever they want to be obnoxiously intrusive". Has become the ED school despite any drawbacks, logistically, that I could point out.</p>

<p>The other school I won't mention as neither of us had anything good to say about it.</p>

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<p>Interested in going to W&L? Make sure you read this thread word for word and truely understand the issues at hand. Look for the facts and then ask yourself " is this the place for me?"</p>

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<p>I'm happy to hear that W&L is beginning to change its honor code system a little, such as by appointing a faculty overseer for the EC. I think more needs to be done along the lines of the suggestions by aries and others.</p>

<p>I wonder if the negative publicity on CC contributed to the impetus for change? I mean, if I were a prospective student with many other good colleges to choose from and had enough on my plate with college applications to complete and campus visits to make, I don't know that I'd bother with W&L after reading the 3 threads on CC that mention the school's honor code-related problems and include links to student editorials. Even if it's all lies and misunderstandings, why take the risk that where's there's smoke there may indeed be fire?</p>

<p>It's a shame that such a great school is being hurt by this.</p>

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<p>musictoad,</p>

<p>my s felt the same way about Davidson. His visit was on a weekday ( 10-3) and what stuck out to him was the "intense" atmosphere. Students changed classes with heads in their notes and books, very few talking to each other. Even in their common areas. Davidson is a great school but he has found his niche at W&L. Oh yeh, he is working very hard, but he says the "culture" seems so different.</p>

<p>So how was the inauguration today, anyone that is in Lexington? I undertand it is a big party and date weekend What a beautiful day- wish we were there, but I imagine s is glad the old folks are at home.</p>

165

<p>As the CCer who began this thread, I thought I'd add in few new comments :)</p>

<p>A side note to the honor code... You don't need an honor code at a school to trust those around you. At my new school, Drew University in Madison,NJ, I've left books and my laptop unattended, and everything has been there when I've returned. I think sometimes the "honor system" gives people a false sense of security. I know there were several major items stolen out of peoples rooms last year, a girl on my hall actually had a brand new nice winter coat taken right off of her chair, becase her room was left unlocked. So even with an honor code, you should be careful.</p>

<p>I also fell instantly in love with W&L and its campus when I visited as a HS jr. and then sr. But now that I've attended W&L, (and left it) there's something about campus life I've realized in hindsight that prospectives should understand. Basically, when you are in Lexington, you are on W&L "campus", every well-dressed young adult you see around town is most likely a W&L student. Many adults walking around are your professors. Some people like that kind of atmosphere but I found it suffocating. Sometimes I just felt like I had to get AWAY from W&L people. I remember sitting in a coffee shop (the Daily Grind) in Lex one day right as elementary school was getting out. Two familes came in with like 6 little kids and I made me sooo happy to just see and chat with some "normal" people who were unaffiliated with W&L. My school in Madison has a very nice little town that is similar to Lex, except that it's bigger, and there are a lot more people that aren't connected with my school. It also helps that there are two other small colleges in Madison. </p>

<p>I thought I wanted the W&L lifestyle, but I realized that I need more normalcy in my life. Washington and Lee, for better or for worse, is a Bubble, and I don't think anyone can deny that. I, for one, want to experience the larger world out there...and I'm happy to have blown the w&l bubble far,far, away....</p>

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<p>Just remember, that not everyone walking around on the campus may be a W&L student, especially on a home football weekend. My D and her friend put their 2 jackets in one of the cubbies in the Student Center. After they came out of the dining hall, her friend's jacket was still in the cubby, my D's was not. There were a lot of people all over campus from the other school that day so who knows what happened?</p>

<p>On the other hand she lost her cell phone over a weekend at a country house function and somebody contacted her within a day or 2 saying it had been found.</p>

<p>Her dad (my H) was both a cadet and a faculty member at West Point which also has an Honor Code. The cadets are told to secure certain property as there are more than just cadets in the barracks, ie maintenance workers etc.</p>

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<p>herewego--</p>

<p>i'm glad that you have found a great school and sorry that WLU didn't work for you.</p>

<p>every school is a bubble tho. my other kid goes to a bubble. i went to a bubble. if it doesn't work, time to transfer and find another. no sense in being miserable for four years.</p>

<p>if S makes it in, i hope it works for him. we'll see. you just can't predict what life has in store for someone.</p>

<p>good luck at Drew.</p>

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<p>Herewego, good luck at your new school. My husband is a Drew alum and looks back on his days there fondly. He picked the school because of its fencing program, and wound up going to the NCAAs.</p>

<p>Enjoy.</p>

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<p>The OP's original complaint about W&L was about the Honor System (hence the title of the thread). No one should enroll in W&L if they do not understand the Honor System and the punishment for its violation. I have not looked at the "White Book" in over 30 years, but I am sure that the concept is still the same -- A Student shall not lie, cheat or steal (or allow another Student to do the same). This is not a difficult concept. The single punishment (expulsion) may seem extreme, but I live in a major college city now and if a student cheats on an exam or turns in internet purchased papers the worst that might happen is he may fail that test or paper (not the course).</p>

<p>The complaint that a student can withdraw from the University rather than be expelled is hardly unique to our system of justice. Prosecutors regularly offer plea bargains to suspected criminals to avoid the uncertainty of a trial and many potential criminals accept plea bargains for the same reason. If you believe that you did not commit an honor violation, you should ask for a public honor trial. When I was at W&L, there was at least one public honor trial regarding theft of some property from what the student believed was an abandoned building. The defense seemed to be either that the property was of a de minimus value or that it appeared to be abandoned. Nonetheless, it could not be denied that the property had sufficient value that the student took it for himself and had to trespass on private property to get it. The student was expelled.</p>

<p>Sometimes the hardest part about the honor system is to understand that it really means something. If you steal a stick of gum from someone, you stole it. The value is besides the point. If you cheat on an exam, you still cheated, even if it was on only one question. And if you lie to a professor about why you missed his exam, you still lied.</p>

<p>If you don't like the idea of going to a small school in a small town, I would not recommend it. And it was a FAR smaller town when I went there. My parents had to make hotel reservations for my graduation when they dropped me off for freshman year because there were only two hotel/motels in the town (or vicinity). </p>

<p>I loved my time at W&L and am still very close friends with a lot of my fraternity brothers from that time. It's not for everyone, so understand the college before you go there.</p>

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<p>HAT - very well said :)</p>

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<p>Hat -- My dad went to W&L and told me the same story (I think the student in question was actually one of his friends) before I got to school freshmen year. It was really sobering for me to hear and helps me keep things in perspective. I'm not sure if I agree with the verdict or not (that to take the furniture was an HV), but it's good to keep in mind that your actions may have completely unintended consequences.</p>

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<p>"A Student shall not lie, cheat or steal ... This is not a difficult concept."</p>

<p>I strongly disagree Hat, I wish things were as black and white as you seem to think they are, but that is unrealistic. There are so many 'gray areas'. For instance, if you tell a friend that she looks good when you really think she looks like crap...this is a LIE. True, it's a "little white lie" but it is a lie nonetheless. Do you think this student should be kicked out of school for this? Doubtful. </p>

<p>Also, to clear things up... my main issue is not even with what the system deems dishonorable behavior, it is how investigations and trials are handled.</p>

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<p>It seems like a lot of y'all like HereWeGo and others are simply mad because they didn't fit in at W&L. They're angry because it was hard for them to make any friends and so now they're bashing the school. Y'all keep talking about how all y'all want to change the school. Did you ever think maybe people the "majority" you talk about went there because they WANTED the sameness that you hate. If you wanted a more diverse and less conservative school maybe you should have gone somehwere else to begin with. You should accept that you made the wrong choice and not bash W&L</p>

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<p>you're right, I didn't fit in. But I am not on here "bashing the school" because I am angry about not fitting in. I'm doing my best to warn other kids who may not "fit in" at w&l about what they should expect. Also, I don't think anyone should have to "fit in" at any school in order to be happy and succesful there.That alone would not nearly have been enough to get me to leave W&L. And if you go back and read this thread in its entirety, you will realize the the "straw that broke the camel's back" had absolutely nothing to do with fitting or not fitting in... it had to do with fairness and corruption. </p>

<p>Again, my posts are not about "Bashing" w&l, I believe that there are several good things about w&l, which I hve shared, but there are also many problems with it, as there are with every university. As a former student, who has experienced w&l life firsthand, I am simply sharing my experiences with others.</p>

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<p>Bodean, I agree with HereWeGo--I especially disagree with your statement "They're angry because it was hard for them to make any friends and so now they're bashing the school." I actually had a ton of friends Fall term, but like it has been mentioned on this board, they began to become a little more distanced as we all joined our respective fraternities. I do think it gets a bit better toward Jr. and Sr. year though when everyone's over the whole frat/srat hype. I'm probably going to be a Dorm Counselor next year and that'll be a good way for me to reconnect with a lot of the friends I haven't seen in a while (a lot of them want to be DCs too). Like HereWeGo says, there are a lot of great things about W&L, but it does have its problems too. Why not try to work on the problem areas? Any change that's happening (besides the ridiculously obtrusive alcohol politices) is not negative change, it's positive. I actually wanted a conservative school to begin with, but have found the negative side effects of it to be particularly overwhelming. Regardless, W&L is definitely great and I'm staying.</p>

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<p>...bump....</p>

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<p>I’m researching colleges for my little sister now, a whole - what, 3.5yrs? - since I started this thread… Just stumbled upon CC. I totally forgot this site even existed, and then I search W&L to check out what was going on…and it all came back to me. Gotta say, I’m proud that my little thread STILL has more replies than any other W&L thread!! Haha… I was feisty, I guess. Good times, good times.</p>

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<p>Came across this site today and thought I would post my thoughts concerning W&L for anyone who may be interested.</p>

<p>I haven’t read the entire thread, but from the looks and length of it, I would say the poster has hit on some vital points about W&L, namely issues regarding the social atmosphere and the honor system. I would echo these remarks. W&L is not for everyone, although in my view it certainly is attempting to remain competitive in the 21st century by making itself as diverse as possible. This is not an easy task given the fact that the school is so tied to events that took place during the civil war era. This heritage is a strength and a liability. </p>

<p>General Lee set forth standards for the conduct of his students that are simply not followed today. In this era, given the many fine college choices in this country, I think the school would have a harder time recruiting students from areas other than the South. They do have consistent recruiting success with groups of students coming from areas like Dallas-Fortworth, Baltimore, areas in Virginia and many areas further south.</p>

<p>I don’t know if HereWeGo is from the south, but my feeling is that folks from there generally feel more comfortable at W&L than those from elsewhere. It should be made clear that it is a Southern school, historically and culturally and that will not be changing anytime soon.</p>

<p>There are several other key points that should stand out about W&L:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Alcohol- will be at any college you attend, but not in the sheer quantities per capita that you will find in Lexington. And if you choose not to partake, there is not much else to do, except drive a few hours to the nearest outpost of civilization (i.e. Harrisonburg or Charlottesville), if you have a car.</p></li>
<li><p>Fraternities- I had friends at other schools who were in fraternities, but the rush and pledgeship were not nearly as intense (or mean-spirited) as they were at W&L. Fraternities are part of the core culture of W&L, but they are also its greatest liability to the extent that they engage in very dangerous activities and foster unhealthful life habits such as heavy drinking.</p></li>
<li><p>The Honor System- is related to the fraternity question, because in my view much of the conduct that goes on in the fraternity scene is beyond dishonorable, but for the most part this does not fall within the purview of the Honor Code, except when specific incidents are brought to the attention of the University authorities. For the most part, (I attended in the late 90’s) the Honor Code’s jurisdiction falls entirely on academic issues such as cheating, and has almost no effect on the fraternities/sororities. And it does seem to be arbitrarily applied. The problem is that historically, the school had no control over the fraternities whatsoever. That changed as the school began to purchase the greek houses in an effort to exert some control. It needs more control, in my opinion. The more separation exists between the school and the fraternities/sororities, the more problems there will be. The new sorority houses seem like a step in the right direction.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>I think folks from the South and those whose parents and family members have attended W&L before will be much better able to become acclimated there. </p>

<p>If you do not have enough information about the school, however, you may not get this information until it is too late.</p>

<p>The biggest thing is that it is very isolated geographically. That in itself is not a problem , but the town of Lexington has almost no resources for those who want a break from the seemingly endless stream of live music and alcohol. Not even a 7-11. </p>

<p>A positive note-- For the same reasons I outlined about Lexington not being an ideal college setting if you are from a relatively modern American suburb or town, make it an ideal destination if you are a college professor or a retired person. Thus, the academics at W&L are quite good and I found most of the professors to be outstanding. </p>

<p>I think many people have a great time at W&L, but unfortunately, I think there are too many that do not, and for reasons that would be unacceptable to either George Washington or Robert E. Lee. That said, W&L may work out great for you, but if it doesn’t, transferring should be seriously considered, and the sooner the better.</p>

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<p>Despite the acrimony, this is a really interesting thread, and I really appreciate Custis’ post. W&L is still an enigma to me. Despite being told by several folks on this forum that a liberal, atheist, outspoken Northerner would not do well at the college, my daughter and I went to visit anyway. I wouldn’t quite say we “drank the koolaid,” but we both thought it was really impressive, both physically and academically. The student tour guides were stellar, and the description of the social scene made it seem relatively benign. My D would be unlikely to join a srat at almost any other school, but if 80% of the students are in the Greek system, doesn’t that make it relatively non-exclusive and less likely to be stifling to individuality? (Her big objection would be that she doesn’t want a part in hurtfulness and exclusivity.) She’s very social, but she’s also a commited athlete, so she’s fairly certain she wouldn’t fall into the trap of binge drinking. The academics are appealing to someone like her - a serious student who is interested in politics/econ/government, and opportunities in DC look pretty good. The Johnson Scholarship is a huge draw, if she were lucky enough to be considered. </p>

<p>That said, it’s still difficult to decide whether she should even apply. At worst, some posters raise the image of her being stuck in an isolated (though lovely) and tiny town, surrounded by confederate flags and drunk frat boys. At best - the side we saw on our visit - it would be an academically rich, culturally interesting, and really fun experience (though still very isolated).</p>

<p>So which is it in 2009? Is the stellar merit aid program at W&L drawing a more diverse group of kids? Do they have a positive effect on creating a more open and accepting social environment? The college’s academic stats certainly seem to be on the rise, so are there social/cultural side effects of that? I’m always looking for more insights from students and parents alike.</p>

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<p>Southern, “Robert E. Lee” culture is an anachronism from a past better left behind. I’m sure that culture was great if you were white. Spending good money on something that sounds from the descriptions on this thread like something out of Gone With the Wind is not my idea of a fun and rewarding college education. </p>

<p>And ANY college dominated by the Greek system is automatically out. 80%? OMG, that is so 1950s. Talk about a time warp. Whoa!</p>

<p>Now, let me say something positive about “southern tradition.” When they can get past their racial hangups, I find native Southerners better mannered, more polite, and more genuinely friendly than folks from my part of the country. But the group-think on issues like race, abortion, religion, and sexual orientation are too much to take for more than a few days at a time. “Palin Country” is not for me.</p>