Honesty as a Hook?

Parent Cafe
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<p>I've been reading several recent threads that remind me of a bunch of threads I've read over the past year in which the gist of the OP's question was, "Should I give a straight answer to a question I am asked in the admissions process?" When I reply in those threads, I suggest that the applicant simply tell the truth about whatever the issue is. To my continued amazement, I see a lot of replies in threads like that in which the suggested response is to answer "strategically," or to answer partially, or to not answer at all. </p>

<p>I'm wondering, in view of the frequently given advice not to answer questions as they are asked, if an applicant who simply gives straight answers to questions becomes a stand-out, rare applicant who thus has an admissions "hook." Mini told a story in a recent thread about his older daughter going well beyond the call of duty by turning a "Why College X?" essay into a description of her misgivings about College X--she was still admitted there. I think that frank, unabashed honesty about a college and about yourself might be a refreshing change of pace for the admissions officer reading your file. That might help distinguish you from many other similar applicants. </p>

<p>What do the rest of you think about honesty as a hook?</p>

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<p>I will give you my opinion, which admittedly is my opinion.</p>

<p>You are selling yourself to the colleges. You don't want to say anything that would detract from your chances in admission. Honesty is important as long as it doesn't hurt your admission's chances. If you can, try to conceal any negative facts about you, as long as they aren't readily available to the college. Likewise, don't say anything stupid or negative about the school.</p>

<p>Schools want students who are both passionate about their prospective major and about attending that school.</p>

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<p>Its like when they ask you in a job interview
"can you tell us about your negative qualities"
answer" I am so compulsive that I stay late and finish up work for next week! and I never take vacations"</p>

<p>My daughter didnt' try and second guess what they were looking for- just was herself- but she wouldn't have written in an essay seeking admission to a school- her hesitancy about it.
Why go through the process of trying to be admitted if you don't think you want to go there?</p>

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<p>There are questions I believe should not be asked, much less answered. One would be about one's religion. I don't recall if S was asked. I also believe he left his ethnicity blank.</p>

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<p>I know that in my d.'s particular case, it indicated how much she knew about the school, down to the individual retiring faculty members, and particularly addressing how the school would be likely to meet or not meet her specific needs. What the school was then able to do was build a program around her, rather than simply shoehorning her into something already existing. That wouldn't happen often, I expect, which is too bad, because I think it should happen far more often than it does. One is every bit as much a consumer as a seller, and (if I were an admissions officer) an intelligent consumer would be a big plus. It's more like a marriage than a job interview, or at least it should be.</p>

<p>As far as I'm concerned, one of the worst outcomes would be to be admitted to a selective school, and encouraged to attend it, when it in fact would not serve one's particular dreams and aspirations. Rejection would be a far better outcome.</p>

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<p>I don't see honesty as a hook. I expect people to be honest. When I learn that they aren't, it counts against them -- big time.</p>

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<p>Oh please, is this a serious question?</p>

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<p>Hi, suze, if someone else had opened the thread, I might have replied much as Northstarmom replied. That's the way I think about the issue too. </p>

<p>No, I don't think anyone deserves a "hook" for being honest, because everyone ought to be honest. I did open this thread. My question is not merely rhetorical but also serious insofar as it asks people to think about overanalyzing admissions application questions rather than simply giving them straight answers. My rule of thumb would be, if you have to ask strangers how to answer a question rather than simply answering it the honest way you would answer a friend, a relative, or a neighbor, you may end up being advised to give an answer that will do you no good in the admissions process. </p>

<p>The way I have put this in earlier threads is to advise simply telling the truth, and what I always advise applicants is DARE TO BE YOURSELF and don't worry about being rejected by an institution not willing to accept you for who you really are.</p>

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<p>Token, I think there are different kinds of questions that colleges ask. Some are direct questions where the college really does have a right to know, and call for direct and honest answers; i.e. "have you ever been suspended?"</p>

<p>Some are fuzzy questions where there is no one "true" answer. "Why do you want to attend college X?" for example. The student may have a dozen reasons, and it may be that for the particular student, "because my boyfriend is there" and "because I know I will qualify for a merit award" and "because there are no classes on Friday afternoons" are the most compelling. But that student isn't lying if she answers that she thinks the campus is beautiful or is that she impressed by the quality of the art department. In this case, one can use good judgment as to how to present the truth. </p>

<p>Some are questions that really are not the college's business; i.e., "What other colleges have you applied to?" That is really a marketing question, not something that bears on the student's qualifications to attend the particular college. One could leave that blank or provide selective information -- but to answer completely and truthfully is really simply to undermine one's own position in a competitive market. </p>

<p>So I think when you look at the advice given in other threads, you have to consider context.</p>

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<p>How sure are we that answering that question truthfully is anything other than a good idea and the most expedient way to answer it?</p>

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<p>Do you really think that a top student could be doing himself a favor by telling Tufts that he has also applied to Harvard, Yale & Princeton?</p>

<p>You really have to ask yourself why that question is being asked. I can't think of any possible reason other than as a way to get information to be used for purposes of enrollment management.</p>

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<p>Well, a top student might do himself a favor by analyzing whether Tufts, Harvard, Yale, and Princeton really have all that much in common before applying to any of them. That is one reason why I think it is a GOOD idea to be wholly honest in answering the "What other colleges are you applying to?" question: if one doesn't have a straight answer for that question that sounds plausible to each college on the application list, maybe some of those colleges shouldn't be on the list. </p>

<p>I don't have to imagine reasons why that question is asked, in practice, because I have already been told by one Ivy interviewer why he asks the question. He is not required to ask that question by his alma mater, but he asks the question because if the applicant doesn't indicate interest in any other Ivy-echelon schools, he reasons that the applicant doesn't really feel qualified to get into his alma mater school, and is likely correct in feeling that way. That may or may not be correct reasoning on the Ivy interviewer's part, but this itty-bitty anecdote illustrates that it is hard to be sure what "strategic" answer is strategic in a particular case. By contrast, an honest answer means you can go into every interview with a consistent story, and impress each interviewer that at least you have thought ahead and shown some capacity for mature, reasoned thought in building your college list. Then if Tufts still rejects you, there's nothing lost, especially if Harvard has accepted you meanwhile.</p>

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<p>On another thread, Molliebatmit wrote:</p>

<p>
[quote]
So basically there were two things that made me apply to MIT: I loved the math/science focus, even if I couldn't get much of that at my high school... and an ex-boyfriend of mine had applied and been rejected, and I wanted to see if I could get in when he didn't. Hee.

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<p>Does anyone seriously think that honesty would have required Mollie to disclose BOTH of her reasons for applying to MIT? </p>

<p>If I were an adcom reading a "Why MIT?" essay giving Mollie's second reason for applying to MIT, I would not have given her points for honesty--I would have deducted points for poor discretion in sharing such a frivolous reason. (Mollie strikes me as full of good sense. I'm sure she had the good sense not to share that reason in her application!)</p>

<p>While it is amusing for us to read Mollie's reason after the fact, I don't think an adcom would be amused to have his/her time wasted with such frivolity.</p>

<p>And, truth be told, I suspect there are a fair number of students who apply to reach schools on a lark, taking the pressure off themselves by saying to themselves, "I don't really want to go here. I'm just applying because I'm curious about whether I could get in." </p>

<p>Sounds pretty frivolous (and I rather imagine that a fair number of decisions to apply to elite schools are framed in those terms), but I can see that it might be a useful psychological strategy to protect oneself from falling too deeply in love with a reach school.</p>

<p>In the event that the student gets in to the extreme reach, that may be the time when the student invests the time, energy, and money (in the case of a distant school) to investigate the school more closely by traveling there for a visit.</p>

<p>But, in the meantime, what the college is looking for in the "Why XYZ?" essay is that the student has done at least some preliminary research into the plausible suitability of the school for the student's needs and interests. They have little interest in reading a paragraph about how "I'm just applying to see if I can get in." </p>

<p>Now, as for colleges that ask students to list their other colleges, a student who wants to be honest but prefers not to answer can simply apply to the "nosy" college before making a final decision about the other schools to which s/he will apply. Then the student can honestly answer "I'm still working on narrowing down my list of applications."</p>

<p>If an alumni interviewer pops the "Where else are you applying?" question, things may be a bit stickier, since the timing of interviews may mean that the interview comes after application deadlines. But in an alumni interview, one could always make a general statement like, "Well, I'm very interested in XYZ field and ABC extracurricular, so I decided to apply only to schools that could offer my those options."</p>

<p>And, if the interview happens early enough in the season, one could always turn the tables on the interviewer and ask him, phrasing it along the lines of, "Your school is terrific. I especially appreciate the opportunities in XYZ and ABC at your school, but I realize admission there is very tough and I may not be fortunate enough to be admitted. Do you have any suggestions for other schools I should consider?"</p>

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<p><a href="Mollie%20strikes%20me%20as%20full%20of%20good%20sense.%20I'm%20sure%20she%20had%20the%20good%20sense%20not%20to%20share%20that%20reason%20in%20her%20application!">quote</a>

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I will affirm that I most definitely did not share that particular motivation on my MIT application! :)</p>

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<p>
[quote]
By contrast, an honest answer means you can go into every interview with a consistent story, and impress each interviewer that at least you have thought ahead and shown some capacity for mature, reasoned thought in building your college list

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<p>First of all, many interviewers don't ask. Some colleges explicitly tell their interviewers not to ask, because it is an uncomfortable question. I have talked to a number of my students (as well as my own child) about their interview experiences and the question came up quite rarely.</p>

<p>Second, there are some plausible scenarios in which a student may have a "consistent story" behind his application choices that includes reasons he may not want to reveal--for good reason. E.g., suppose he has an unusual medical condition that requires continual treatment and monitoring and there are only a very few cities with appropriate medical centers and specialists. Or suppose she wants a campus with at least a sizable minority of students from her particular religious denomination, but she is concerned that her interviewer may have negative stereotypes about her religion and does not want to share her religious background. </p>

<p>It seems to me that the student is on more comfortable ground answering questions about his college choices in general terms that focus on some attractive particular strengths of the college AT HAND, without going into specifc detail about the competition.</p>

<p>After all, a student doesn't have the right to ask the college, "What other students are you considering besides me?" </p>

<p>By the same token, why should the college have the expectation that it's okay to ask, "What other colleges are you applying to?"</p>

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<p>This is a very interesting suggestion. Indeed, much of what you have written in your two replies to this thread is food for thought. But is it really a good idea for the student with the unusual medical condition (an interesting hypothetical case) to, on the one hand, build a college application list around the condition but, on the other hand, to not communicate that salient fact to college officials? </p>

<p>AFTER EDIT: Oh, and of course if a student really, truly thinks it is none of a college's business to ask where else an applicant is applying, the student can always say, "I'd rather not say" or even "It's none of your #!&^ business." The second answer would be an honest answer coming from a student who has that opinion (whether or not it would be expedient ;) ). But why should an applicant to Tufts, as mentioned earlier in the thread, be embarrassed to say he is applying to Harvard? Lots of people apply to Harvard--many more than get in, and it's no shame to apply to more than one college.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
But is it really a good idea for the student with the unusual medical condition (an interesting hypothetical case) to, on the one hand, build a college application list around the condition but, on the other hand, to not communicate that salient fact to college officials?

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<p>The appropriate college officials with whom to discuss that salient fact would NOT be admissions officials and would certainly not be the alumni interviewer.</p>

<p>The university health services and possibility the office of disability services would be the appropriate people to discuss such matters. They operate under strict confidentiality rules and would share information on a strictly limited basis, based on need-to-know. </p>

<p>There are few situations in which the admissions office would have a need-to-know details of a student's medical condition.</p>

<p>Typical need-to-know issues might be, e.g., the student's resident assistant if the student might be at risk for a life-threatening emergency in the dorms. That kind of disclosure could certainly wait until after admission.</p>

<p>The hypothetical student might certainly want to have some confidential discussions with health services officials and/or disability assistance ahead of time--in developing his list of appropriate colleges.</p>

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<p>Token, the anecdote you shared just illustrates my point -- a student who decides to apply to Yale and focuses all his other applications on match schools or safeties where he is likely to get merit money, as well as his in-state public -- under the rationale that Yale is the only school he wants badly enough that he is willing to ask his family to pay megabucks is seen by your interviewer friend as not really being Ivy caliber. (Unless, of course, what your friend really means is that the student who is not applying to several Ivy-caliber school probably doesn't come from a family of sufficient means... more enrollment management, this time on the financial front).</p>

<p>Your rationalization seems to be, well if the answer isn't what the college wants to hear, maybe the student shouldn't be going to that college. But that is just imbuing the college with some sort of omniscient ability to decide what the student really wants -- never mind what the student says. The point is -- its still none of the college's business. A smart applicant is going to be diplomatic and judicious in answering.</p>

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<p>No, I don't think any human being or any human organization is omniscient, but generally human beings stumble a little closer to a well-negotiated result that fits everyone better with more information rather than less. Am I correct in taking your preferred answer to the "What other colleges are you applying to?" question to be "I don't think that's relevant to my application to your fine college"? If you advocate saying something along those lines in an interview, and leaving such a question blank on an application form, then perhaps you and I have no disagreement here. (But please feel free to correct me if I am wrong in assuming what you think. :) )</p>

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<p>How do you measure Honesty?</p>