Whenever I read about advantages of being a big fish in a small pond, I wonder if being in an honors program of any decent school is really that diffrent from general body of an elite school? What pros and cons do you see for a student who can be among top 1-5% of an elite college and top 1% of an honors program at a good state school?
Honors programs are not drop-in elite colleges inside a larger U. You take some lower-division honors classes along with regular classes; the percentage of honors classes varies by program from 1 seminar per semester to perhaps replacing much of your frosh and maybe soph schedule. Upper division, you’re back in the regular U. Honors colleges don’t have the faculty to offer completely independent majors where all your upper-division Bio or Econ or whatever classes are Honors classes. In fact the typical program doesn’t have any upper-division honors classes in most majors.
^ This varies a lot by school. At mine, you can “honors option” anything to make a normal class into an honors one by adding more work, more theory, extra projects, etc. And I’m required to take 14 honors credits over junior and senior year. This is partially fulfilled by honors research.
How diffrent two are competition and opportunities wise?
My D is pondering about cons of being the average fish in big ponds.
@SugarlessCandy my daughter was accepted into several honors programs. I will briefly discuss the two that impressed me the most- U Pitt and Lehigh.
Pitt- My D was impressed by the quality of students in the honors program. She interviewed for a specific program within honors and was blown away by the accomplishments of the professors and students. She came out of the interview truly humbled. Many of these “kids” turned down Ivy League and similar schools.
Lehigh- My D was accepted into the scholars program which consists of 20 students. We were told that she would be invited to dinner with guest speakers, get invites to special events, etc. It was hard to turn down - and that’s an understatement.
My daughter turned down both offers ( both gave her very large merit awards) and instead chose what is considered a top five ( ?) public flagship university. She is extremely happy and has had multiple amazing opportunities come her way. She is not in the honors program.
Thank you for sharing your D’s experience.
My son was accepted to elite colleges and his state’s flagship college’s honors program. In general, honors programs do try to offer some of the advantages of an elite university. Some specific programs are better than others. For example, sometimes being in an honors program allows you to opt out of course distribution requirements and allow you to immediately focus on a major (or make it easier to double major), being such a scholar gives you an edge in doing research for a professor and thus expand your network of influencers, and you get invited to honors program only events (the quality/usefulness of these events changes). At the same time, sometimes the college-within-a-college aspect really doesn’t last beyond one’s first year. There is lasting prestige in being such a scholar even beyond school, but that’s only if someone is aware of the program (leave the state, and few do).
My son received some advice from a professor at that state college. The professor said, “Follow the money.” Basically, the more money a college spends on its undergraduates, all else being equal, the more opportunities will be created for those undergraduates. And that level of undergraduate focus combined with possibly superior financial resources is not really something that a state honors program can match.
My personal opinion is based on the assumption that a state school is a larger school. If a student wants to be in that larger environment (many thousands of students per class year versus 2000 or under, give or take), but also have some of the benefits of a smaller, elite school, then an honors program sounds like a perfect choice.
With that said, faced with such a choice after being accepted is a wonderful position to be in. Just remember that the best college education is the result of a student actually taking advantage of the opportunities he or she has. This is sometimes prospectively reduced to the idea of fit (becuase the student is more comfortable at a particualr school, is likely not to be struggling emotionally or socially, and is positively engaged in the school).
And I know I didn’t address the top 5% at elite vs. top 1% at state. I just don’t have any opinion on that based on some objective information.
Muchas gracias!
My D is a freshman in the honors program at Temple University. She is required to take 2 classes each semester that are designated honors, and the honors classes she has taken so far are smaller than the regular sections. She feel as though the honors courses have been challenging and interesting, with lots of discussion. Being in honors allowed her to live in the honors LLC at TU, nice dorm central to her classes, priority registration for classes, and an extra honors advisor. The honors program also hosts guest speakers and sponsors activities. She is also in the Fox business school honors program, which also hosts additional speakers and events, and provides opportunities for volunteering, professional development, and mentoring. So far, D is very happy with Temple’s Honors program and extra opportunities it affords.
Check out http://publicuniversityhonors.com for some interesting discussion/comparison of honors programs.
“if being in an honors program of any decent school is really that diffrent from general body of an elite school?”
Yes, in general, they are quite different. I teach at a decent state flagship university with a good honors college. My son is attending an elite university.
“What pros and cons do you see for a student who can be among top 1-5% of an elite college and top 1% of an honors program at a good state school?”
At such a high level, I bet they can achieve almost the same level of academic achievement if they choose to go to a graduate school that does not require/expect quality work experience. If going on to the job market, the networking advantage at an elite university is very useful for a high finance profession or launching a startup.
It’s funny that yesterday I met a professor at a party who is a faculty member of an honors college at our state’s flagship. His take was similar to yours.
For a top 1% student with undecided major, he would recommend going with the elite school if money isn’t a factor. For students who are going to be in middle or at bottom in an elite school, they would benefit more at honors colleges where they can be top students.
His other point was to see if a kid is acchivement oriented or recognition oriented, as people who prefer recognition are served better by colleges where they are big fishes and get opportunities handed to them.
Kids who sit around and wait for people to hand them opportunities aren’t likely to get many.
I agree but many parents prefer these honors programs with built in incentives over sending kids to competitive colleges to fight over chances to catch their fish themselves.
Thinking about this and reading other comments, I guess an early question is: does a particular student thrive in a competitive environment or do they prefer a more supportive one? You can read scores of comments of students at top, competitive colleges who regret choosing the “prestige” and competitiveness over an “easier” state school. I don’t know if there’s ever a real answer there. But I’ll give it a shot :).
Assume zero parental involvement:
(1) Is a student self-motivated and consistently pushing himself or herself to go above and beyond?
(to flip this, does a parent sometimes find themselves wondering if their HS student is pushing themselves too hard)?
(2) Is a student happy to challenge himself or herself in class, and love the intellectual challenge, but unlikely to pursue other challenges on his or her own?
(to flip this, is a parent supplying the impetus to keep a student motivated to achieve, or to seek more competitive opportunities)?
Again, there’s no real answer. I will just say that students in category (1) tend to be happier at top schools, and students in category (2) (who academically and intellectually are as good and qualified as those in the other category) tend to be happier in a state school/honors program.
For the third time, there’s no real answer here. Students who think they are in (1) may be wrong about themselves, and so are those for (2).
As parents, one of the things we can do to help is to try to understand our children for who they ARE, and not who we WANT/WISH them to be, or even who the child WANTS to be.
But even as I write this and think about category (2), part of me wonders if a parent can engage in the “soft bigotry of low expectations.” I doubt that’s a problem for the typical CC parent or student. Just throwing it out there.
You raised some thought provoking questions.
Keep in mind that there are students who easily fit into category 1 who would not do well emotionally at a highly competitive school. A “top” school can be collaborative and supportive as well.
Very often these category 1 HS kids are very tough… They are huge perfectionists, up at 5 am to start the day’s events, they enjoy debating and proving their point, etc. … at the same time they may not do well mental health wise at a highly competitive school.
This is a very timely discussion, too, as kids are getting ready to decide between these very options! Thanks for your thoughts everyone.
I am going to disagree with @ChartresBlue.
I have kids who most definitely fall into category 1. I have kids who love to learn and run with their desires to constantly be immersed in more. They pursue their love of learning to the point that I have had to say no to more, not just wondering if they were doing too much.
They have also been happy at their state schools in the honors programs. They have had professors who have been fabulous mentors. As students they have actively sought out opportunities to be engaged in research and other opportunities to expand beyond classroom experiences.
I think the majority of kids tend to happy where they land.
@Mom2aphysicsgeek “I think the majority of kids tend to [be] happy where they land.” Overwhelmingly agree. Just trying to give my two cents to help aid in the decision process.