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Mikemac: I think that what you refer to as skepticism is better labeled as uninformed. Not only are your comments outdated, they are incorrect regarding upper level courses-which were the original birthplace of the "honors" concept.
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Garrity, I think you're just making this up!! </p>
<p>So I'm calling your bluff. Post links to 4 or 5 universities where you can pick any (or almost any) major offered to the regular students but all the upper-division courses a student takes are honors classes. And by classes I mean the class instruction is small classes specifically for the honors students, not just taking a regular class at the U with a discussion section restricted to the honors students, or taking the regular class but submitting an extra paper or project to get "honors" status.</p>
<p>As I said before, truth is that it's is rare to find more than a token amount of offerings upper-division since the honors program simply doesn't have enough staff to duplicate an entire major or set of majors. So the last 2 years most/all classes are taken with the rest of the students in the regular U's classes.</p>
<p>But you say I'm wrong. Ok, prove it. Should be easy to do with the 600 or more honors programs you claim are out there doing this; just show us 5 that offer it.</p>
<p>mikemac: I can see that you are a beginner with respect to honors programs and colleges. The best place for you to start is Peterson's Honors Programs & Colleges edited by Joan Digby. Your anger comes through loud and clear. I am trying to help you, and I did not mean to upset you. But you do not understand much about honors study based on your posts in this thread. Noone ever suggested that a complete major can be done with honors courses; that is simply your misreading of other posts. Upper level courses enjoy the benefit of self selecting students who have made it through 2 years of college and have selected that major. The earliest "honors" programs were specifically reserved for students in particular majors who qualified or were invited to be in that major's honors program. There were and are 100s of these programs still. Your post is rude and shows a severe lack of knowledge in this area, which is not uncommon here. Please get the Peterson's book; it will be a great starting point for you. The type of program which you are seeking is often called "departmental" honors. Rather than listing 4 or 5, I suggest you get the book and enjoy eating your rude remarks over 4 or 5 hundred programs! Or possibly Peterson's, Dr. Joan Digby and I are just making this up, along with 650 colleges to get your goat! Ha Ha ! Yes you are wrong- but I prefer to write that you are just uninformed or inexperienced in this area.</p>
<p>mikemac: In rereading your angry post to me, it is clear that you do not comprehend well. I do not mean this as an insult to you, but as encouragement to leave your comfort zone and to grow by learning. Please reread your posts and my posts, take a deep breath and reread them again without anger. I think you will see that I was trying to help you. I suspect that you are older,possibly retired and with a lot of time on your hands. Often this is the most resistent type of learner. I mean no disrespect to you, but you should learn to respect others just as you want others to respect you. Please read the book and you will understand the foolishness of your posts. If you need further guidance, please PM me and I will try to help.</p>
<p>Garrity, you elude to a lot of great programs, but never get specific except to avoid programs like ASU and Arizona. I appreciate the good information, but I'm looking for programs to seek. You say the best honors programs and honors colleges are rarely mentioned on this website. Can you fix that?</p>
<p>Which honors colleges/programs do people consider on par with the top privates (beyond HYPSM), so that money aside, they would still prefer the honors college. Or where would these top honors colleges end up when ranked with top universities or LACs. </p>
<p>I address ASU and Univ. of Arizona because they are specifically addressed in posts, and there is a lot of misinformation about ASU. I will not list schools without very specific info. This is not a friendly web site, thus if I mention one school I will have to write a book justifying it to some highly emotional and, often, rude posters who think they know it all. Many posters do not know how to politely ask questions or challange assertions. I have been at this for well over a decade and prefer to respond only to specific queries. However, I will endorse Ohio University as having a very special program for the right mature, intelligent, hard-working and disciplined scholar. And the people are quite friendly as well. I have also noticed a lack of honesty with some long-time posters. One self proclaimed expert on honors colleges claims that his daughter attends both Univ. of Texas Plan II Honors as well as Rhodes College in Memphis, Tenn. at the same time. My point is that I like to deal with genuine, honest situations rather than with some who just want to milk me for info. so that they can criticize it in a vulgar fashion.</p>
<p>To Garrity: What, specifically, is flawed with Arizona's Honors College? There's always a bit of exaggeration when it comes to the literature that is circulated, but that happens everywhere. Besides downplaying any faults and perhaps emphasizing strengths, what negatives are there to be found in the U of A's Honors College?</p>
<p>Whoa Garrity, it was a genuine honest question, and I didn't mean to offend you, and I'm not actually sure how I did. </p>
<p>As far as the board not being friendly, well, you can just ignore those who want milk you for info so they can criticize you, and help out those of us who want to milk you for info because we want to learn from your vast experience. </p>
<p>Come on people, be nice to this guy! He seems to have useful info.</p>
<p>vin21: You did not offend me, but your reaction to my response surprises me. Anyway, even by explaining myself I get strong responses. I know it is a legit question-just read my response. mrhazel44: If important to you, then why no specific question? Again, please read my response.</p>
<p>I'm sorry Garrity, I didn't realize you wanted something more specific than that. I am in all likelihood going to apply to the University of Arizona for the class of '12, and my National Merit status will allow for very generous scholarships and automatic entrance into the Honors College. From what I have read, heard and seen of the Honors College, it seems to be a pretty good program. People personally connected with it have spoken in its favor, and others not affiliated with the U of A hold it in high regard. I was just wondering what specific disadvantages there are in enrolling as an Honors College student. So far what I have seen is good, but then again I suspect that you are more informed about this topic than I am. So my question, in all its glory, is as follows: Should I be leery of Arizona's Honors College, and if so, why? I appreciate the help in advance.</p>
<p>Interestedad gives a table showing Percentage of graduates receiving a doctorate degree over the most recent 10 year period.</p>
<p>I think this is a fascinating list because it indicates a certain level of scholarly atmosphere at schools in this list, and as a serious student, I think I would find that atmosphere attractive. I also know that when I apply, I'll be facing the most competitive pool in history, so I'm looking for good ideas.</p>
<p>I noticed that at the top 25 schools in this list, at least 1 in 10 go on for a PhD. I also noticed that the first public school in that list, Berkeley, is at number 49. </p>
<p>Now here is my specific question. Of the honors programs and colleges that you think highly of. In your opinion, which I highly value, which 5 would you guess would have the highest percentage of students that will ultimately go on to get a PhD, and roughly for comparison's sake, where would you speculate they would be in that list. </p>
<p>I'd greatly appreciate any insight you might have. If it helps, I like all things mathematical. Math, Statistics, CompSci, Physics, Economics, Linguistics, maybe engineering. I'm not sure what I want to major in yet.</p>
<p>Penn State's Schreyer's is very well respected and also extremely competitive (I'm pretty sure they only take 200 kids, and you need mid 1400s to be considered). PSU is top 50 though so it's certainly respectable with or without the honors college, but Schreyer's is a top-notch school.</p>
<p>If you get a degree through the honors college at Podunk, you are still a graduate of Podunk.</p>
<p>Honors colleges are not substantially different from the rest of the university. Most of your experience will be the same.</p>
<p>I think honors colleges are mostly a marketing gimick.</p>
<p>I took a look at the Revealed Preference study. It is a little hard to understand, but it looks like almost nobody chooses publics over Ivies. (If I am interpreting table 4 correctly....) Revealed preference is based on who chooses to attend which school when admitted to both....I think.</p>
<p>Let's say Penn State has the best honors college. It is ranked #92 in the pecking order. Cornell, an Ivy, is ranked 15th.</p>
<p>If I am reading table 4 correctly:
75% choose George Washington (#73) over Penn State (#92)
96% choose Colgate (#53) over George Washington
65% choose Oberlin (#33) over Colgate
99% choose Cornell (#15) over Oberlin</p>
<p>So, it would probably be unusual to choose even the top honors college over a top-50 school. At least, that's my conclusion. What do you think?</p>
<p>UGA's Honors Porgram has been seriously beefed up in recent years. With the major scholarship $$$ available to instate kids with a 3.0 (full tuition), UGA is retaining a lot of kids who formerly would have left for OOS/privates.</p>
<p>Univeristy of Maryland has a well-known Honors program, and they are top 20 in engineering, math, physics and CS. The Honors courses (at least in math) are offered in the first two years, but they also allow acceleration. Kids with exceptional preparation are encouraged to start directly in 400 level analysis with proof courses and are expected to take graduate courses for junior and senior year. For an in-state kid, it is a VERY interesting prospect.</p>
<p>"honors colleges are not substantially different from the rest of the university. Most of your experience will be the same. I think honors colleges are mostly a marketing gimick."
This is one opinion - not shared by all. And certainly, keep in mind that all honors colleges are not the same.
IMO- The honors college at PSU (SHC) is not like going to an Ivy. You will have some small honors classes and also be mixed with the general population for others. The advising is better, the dorms are nice, early registration is great, and study abroad is partially funded. And the students tend to get attention in a way that can open up more opportunities. It's a great choice for some students and it's NOT all marketing. It's certainly a good choice if you like the idea of going to PSU anyway.<br>
If money is an issue (and it is in many cases), I can see why a student might pick SHC over an Ivy like Cornell or Penn. The choice gets much harder though when you compare SHC to schools like Wake Forest, or Bucknell or Carnegie Mellon. PSU is already a top 50 school and the honors college experience adds another dimension. The grads have been VERY successful and the program is well funded. I'm sure that's the case for other quality honors programs as well.
But...if it's prestige you're looking for...or a small school environment - I'd say the honor's colleges at big publics U's are likely not a good match.</p>
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I had written: It is rare to find more than a token amount of offerings upper-division since the honors program simply doesn't have enough staff to duplicate an entire major or set of majors. So the last 2 years most/all classes are taken with the rest of the students in the regular U's classes. Since the teaching of the profs will be geared towards that level, the discussions and student involvement in class will be dominated by that level of student.
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garrity rsponded: Not only are your comments outdated, they are incorrect regarding upper level courses-which were the original birthplace of the "honors" concept.
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I called garrity's bluff and said show us some links to schools where students take their upper-division courses in the honors college. Should be trivial to do if they are as widespread as she/he says, but what happened? Some gratuitious insults and a lot of hot air. Any links to programs showing what I said is wrong? NO!!</p>
<p>By now it should be clear that this garrity character knows nothing about honors colleges and anyone who pays the slightest heed to the "advice" profferred does so at their own peril. </p>
<p>It is really amusing how garrity acts like an expert; must be quite an ego stroke. For example some posters have asked about ASU and Arizona, which garrity disparages. Why? No reasons are given, and when pressed garrity refuses to give any reasons. Apparently the words of this self-proclaimed expert are meant to be accepted without question by us proles.</p>
<p>Another amusing garrity quote is "The Ivy League's biggest fear in terms of competition are state school honors programs and colleges." Yes, indeed! First off, the ivies have among the highest yield rates in the country (percentage of those offered admission who enroll), and the number of applicants climbs every year. Yet garrity would have us believe the deans live in terror of honors programs stealing away their students. And honors colleges at big U's are the "biggest fear"? Wouldn't one suspect that the Ivy-league schools are a bit more concerned about the competition from places outside the Ivy League like Stanford, Wesleyan, and the like provide for their students than honors programs at state U's? Apparently not in garrity's world ;)</p>
<p>There's really nothing more to say here. Garrity makes claims she/he refuses to justify (usually because they're just plain wrong) and repeatedly shows little knowledge of the very honors colleges she/he's happy to pontificate about. I don't know what kicks garrity's posts give her/him, but anyone who thinks this person is worth asking for advice deserves what they get.</p>