Honors programs at low-prestige schools?

College Search & Selection
41

<p>OK MikeMac - I'll bite.
I did a quick search of honors courses at SHC (Honors College at PSU).They have over 250 course offerings each semester. Many ARE for intro classes. That's to get the kids away from 400-500 person lecture halls. That's a good thing (perhaps better than the experience at Cornell or other large Ivies where large lecture halls are common). And they're taught by full professors.
But there are opportunities for upper class students as well. I have posted the descriptions for two honors classes in business below. There are more .<br>
The honors students also do a research thesis in their senior year and are hooked up with professors to do this.<br>
So, yes, the impact of the honors college might be less in junior and senior year but it still makes a difference. It's NOT just like going to the regular university and it's NOT like going to an Ivy either. It's a different deal all together. And a good one for many students...
Regarding "stealing" Ivy students: Well, there ARE quite a few kids at SHC who were accepted to places like Cornell and Penn. They usually choose SHC due to money - but many are very happy there and go on to great careers and grad schools. Again, when you're talking about choices, I think the more valid comparison is between an Honors College at a good state U and a school in the 25 -50 range. Even if you can cough up the $, are those schools worth triple the price? </p>

<p>B A 302H - Supply Chains
2 credits
Fall & Spring
Meetings: TR 10:10-11:00A
Instructor: Terry Harrison
Class Limit: 25
Prerequisites: ACCTG 211, BA 241, BA 242, ECON 002, ECON 004, MIS 204, SCM 200
Course Objectives: To provide enhanced, in depth learning for scholars students.</p>

<p>B A 303H - Business Administration-Junior Honors Core Course-Marketing
2.0 credits
Fall
Meetings: M W 3:35P-4:25P
Instructor: Matt Aistrich
Class Limit: 30
Prerequisites: Completion of the nine entrance-to-major course requirements
Course Objectives: To provide insight into real world issues that are needed to effectively run a business. We will utilize the fundamental concepts learned (in Finance, Marketing, Management, Logistics, Operations, and Business Law) as a foundation for running a business in the classroom. We will work daily in teams to develop a computer-based learning product that will be reviewed periodically by our corporate mentors. Our "product"in this business will be a computer-based learning environment or a business plan for a new, emerging company that will serve not only as an articulation of understanding of core course concepts, but also as a supplement to the existing core package of B A 301-304 courses. Thus, the honor students in this course will be building a real, live product in closely-knit, high performance teams. Past products have included a finance course Web site that is currently being used in an introductory FIN 100 course, and business plans for IME, Inc. a manufacturing company, Peles, Inc., an e-salon and Good Sports, Inc., a baseball training academy.
Mode of Instruction: In-class teams of 4 to 5 students, with 25 to 33 students maximum per semester. One classroom session each week will be devoted to developing sound, fundamental concepts of the core course requirements, and the second meeting will involve problem-based learning via hands-on, product development, where we build and present the concepts covered into a learning module, a business plan, or an e-commerce product.
Typical Readings: Fundamentals of Corporate Finance; Management Competing in the New Era; A Passion for Excellence; Kotler on Marketing; Management of Business Logistics; Plant and Service Tours in Operations Management; Legal Environment or Manufacturing, Service Operations and The Successful Business Plan.
Work Requirements: Attendance-100 points; Exams-100 points; Product Development/Case Studies-100 points; Participation-100 points; Assignments-100 points; TOTAL 500 points. The product development process involves integration across the functional areas of the 12-credit junior business core: Marketing, Production, Law, Logistics, Finance, and Management. Each team will allocate product responsibilities according to areas of expertise and interest.</p>

42

<p>Come on MikeMac, us kids can be nice, why can't you. Garrity has an opinion I'd like to hear. He says he's studied this subject, and good information isn't that easy to come by. I'm perfectly capable of evaluating his opinion for myself, but I'd still respect it even if I didn't agree with it. </p>

<p>Nice info toneranger, thanks.</p>

43

<p>CountingDown, does of Maryland honors have priority registration?</p>

44

<p>Ditto on vin2l's post. I am actually interested in hearing what Garrity has to say, and if I think it is bogus or if it seems to have some merit, I will try to confirm it and decide how I will let the information affect me. I don't need MikeMac to discredit everything someone else says simply because he may not have had a chance to answer yet. </p>

<p>On a side note: I have a question regarding MikeMac's point about how once you get into the upper levels of an honors college the offerings become fewer and fewer. I thought the purpose of an honors college was to keep you out of the huge lecture halls and allow you to participate in smaller discussion-based classes with professors as an underclassmen. Once you are into the upper-level, major-specific courses at a state school, aren't the classes smaller by their very specific nature? And wouldn't they consist of other similarly motivated students that are serious about pursuing whatever degree you are? I don't think that there need to be many honors offerings in the higher levels of undergraduate education because by then you are surrounded by people that are as intent on their major as you are, not just the local schmoes that will fail out after 2 or 3 semesters. Maybe that's wrong, but it seems like the way things are.</p>

45

<p>I am in the PSU honors program (SHC) and I can tell you that most of my friends rejected at least one Ivy (many of them several). The others that did not mostly applied only to PSU because they knew that they were comming here from an early age. (kids of alums are pretty likely to come). In my case money was secondary to quality of life. I looked at all the options, and decided that going to an Ivy and having to do an excessive amount of work was not something I wanted to do. I kind of enjoy having fun occasionally. Also football became a big issue, I really liked the Big Ten. As far as being worth it, everyone that graduates from the program that wants to go to grad school does, most especially in engineering and science without having to pay. The reason for this is the fact that there is a lot of small scale interaction with proffs as well as the thesis requirment. This basically is a huge boost in getting good grad school placement.</p>

46

<p>I'm not a student there, but I recall reading a thread on UMD Honors vs. Scholars, and the folks said Honors got Priority registration. I'd check their website for verification.</p>

47

<p>mrhazel- With respect to upper level classes, I would agree that the classes are smaller and generally filled with the more motivated students. Many schools have tough "entrance to major" requirements, in some cases requiring a 3.3-3.5 GPA or a formal application.
Even so, there are honors programs that offer a few smaller intense honors classes in the major - even in junior/sr years. Plus students can always take general honors course in history (like the history of the Roman Empire) or English, or mass media. All of these classes are small and discussion oriented. Plus upperclassman generally get hooked up with research. IMO -It ends up being a good mix!</p>

48

<p>The honors college route at a state school sounds very appealing to me right now, because you receive a good education with perks (small classes, priority registration, honors housing, faculty advising), you're around lots of different people so there are many different niches to be found, you can watch your school play (and maybe win) at the D.1 level, you have the facilities of a large school, opportunities for research, very broad course selections, and to top it all off, the price is comparatively cheap. I may be able to get in the door somewhere pretty selective, but how the hell am I going to pay for it?</p>

49

<p>nazhockey26 gives us a great post in #45. People have a lot of reasons for picking the college they do. Social life, money, family connections, location, and much more factor into the decision, as nazhockey26 reminds us. And if you're going to a larger public then the honors colleges are an option well worth considering. </p>

<p>Keep in mind, though, that the honors college enrolls a small number of students compared to the overall U. At PSU where nazhockey26 goes, for example, the FAQ for the honors college says "For Penn State as a whole, Schreyer Scholars constitute approximately 2% of the total undergraduate population." So when you're in upper-division courses outside the honors college, which is where most of your upper-division classes are going to be, you're in with the other 98% (or whatever fraction at your school) of the students. The ones you enrolled in the honors college (in part) to avoid. Same with the lower-division classes you take outside the honors college. At the more selective schools ALL your classes will be with top kids. At PSU, for example, the FAQ goes on to say
[quote]
Do Schreyer Scholars take only Honors Courses?</p>

<p>Honors courses demand an exceptionally high level of commitment and out-of-classroom work, so it’s unusual to schedule more than half of an annual course load in Honors. Roughly speaking, the SHC requires that one-third of first-year and sophomore coursework be in Honors, and at least one-quarter for subsequent years. With more than 200 Honors courses offered each year at University Park, there are many choices. Most students take more than the minimum number of Honors courses required (three per year).

[/quote]
So is PSU honors a good program if you're a PSU student. Definitely. Does it match garrity's fiction where honors kids are in a world apart? Not even close!</p>

<p>
[quote]
toneranger writes: So, yes, the impact of the honors college might be less in junior and senior year but it still makes a difference. It's NOT just like going to the regular university and it's NOT like going to an Ivy either. It's a different deal all together. And a good one for many students...</p>

<p>Regarding "stealing" Ivy students: Well, there ARE quite a few kids at SHC who were accepted to places like Cornell and Penn. They usually choose SHC due to money - but many are very happy there and go on to great careers and grad schools. Again, when you're talking about choices, I think the more valid comparison is between an Honors College at a good state U and a school in the 25 -50 range. Even if you can cough up the $, are those schools worth triple the price?

[/quote]
Again, a good post and thoughtful question. Is there a single answer that's right for everyone person, for every circumstance? Of course not. Each person has to weigh the factors that matter to them and come to a decision.</p>

<p>But when making a choice about what the honors options offers, it is important to go into it with one's eyes open. This is why the fantasy presented in garrity's posts is so disheartening to people that want to help kids make informed decisions.</p>

50

<p>ohio university?</p>

51

<p>Ohio University only admits about 60 or so students a year to its tutorial style honors program which is taught one on one like Cambridge tutorials. This program requires maturity, dedication, direction, hard work and a sense of humor. It is actually a degree granting honors college called the "Ohio University Honors Tutorial College" . Mikemac: When you have something intelligent to share with us, I may respond: but your writings so far are rude and uninformative in addition to being incorrect. Please try to get the Peterson's Honors Programs &Colleges book so you can, at the very least, stop writing such foolish, uninformed comments. I am not your babysitter. Furthermore, I and other posters have detailed the failings of ASU's Honors College- which are and have been quite severe to many students there.</p>

52

<p>Probably the best single source reference, even though now outdated regarding details and offerings, offering an introduction and philosophical understanding of honors programs,and colleges, is titled An Ivy League Education At State School Prices. Last published in 1993 or 1994. This book will greatly aid one's appreciation and understanding of honors education whether in a program, college or upper level "departmental honors". This book introduced me to honors programs, I already was familiar with upper level (redundant) departmental honors in the early 1990s. It remains a great resource even today if used appropriately. Peterson's is current, but only details the honors study at 620 or so schools- which have well over 1,000 honors programs combined- but leaves out dozens of schools in this fluid and developing field.</p>

53

<p>"So when you're in upper-division courses outside the honors college,you're in with the other 98% (or whatever fraction at your school) of the students. The ones you enrolled in the honors college (in part) to avoid"</p>

<p>mikemac - overall, I thought your post was balanced and you seem to be moving beyond the "all honors colleges are marketing gimmicks" idea.<br>
But the statement above is too strong and not always true. Many kids are happy to have a mix of honors and regular courses (and if not - they can really load up on honors courses in the first couple of years if desired). After junior year, especially if the school is already decent, you are NOT thrown in with a bunch of idiots. Getting into the Eng, Science and Business School in many public schools is not easy. Granted, we're not talking Ivy caliber kids in these classes, but you can't make the assumption that the kids who chose the honors program were trying to AVOID these kids. My son enjoys most of of his classes - honors or not. His favorite professor this year is in a non-honors course. And he has MANY friends outside the honors program - smart ones too! So just because SHC is super selective doesn't mean that SHC students are left with the bottom of the barrel in regular classes. Come on...</p>

54

<p>toneranger: One philosophy often used when creating an honors program is to have the program "front loaded" rather than "back loaded". Simply put, this means to offer more courses in the first two years of undergraduate study so that intelligent, diligent and highly motivated students can be separated from the pack in small, professor led, in depth classes even at the introductory level. During the last two years of undergrad study, the less able and less motivated students have either dropped out of school or focus on easy majors, thus allowing the top students to enjoy upper level classes in their major joined by other now more able,mature and motivated students as well as enjoying departmental honors-which are strictly within one's major course of study. Prior to the 1990s, almost all honors courses were upper level and the highly motivated, intelligent and hard working students were left to fend for themselves during the first two years of study. Often gifted upper level students get research, teaching and writing opportunities that dilute the need for upper level honors "courses"; this is especially true at large well funded research universities, and is still true today.</p>

55

<p>Garrity - yeah, from our observations, SHC is "front loaded" , but is beginning to introduce more opportunities for juniors and seniors (maybe due to recent increased funding). For example, when we looked at the school, there were VERY few upper level business courses.. but now there are quite a few choices. And many of them seem to focus on getting small groups together with faculty to tackle "real world" business problems. It's a nice enhancement.
I agree with you that this is a rapidly evolving model - and who knows what the future holds? I appreciate that there's someone like you on this board who is digging through the details, and offering advice. In any case, it seems that the time is here to publish an update to the books on honors colleges. Perhaps you should contact the publisher and offer your help as a writer/researcher! Or write the book yourself. Keep posting...</p>

56

<p>Regarding Ohio University Honors Tutorial College: Interesting to note that it is based on the Cambridge University style or method of learning and instruction as Cambridge typically refuses to admit any more than one or two US educated students a year because they are deemed unprepared for the rigorous study required by the tutorial method. Ohio Univ. Honors Tutorial College requires a deep seated passion for learning, capacity to be a fearless questioner, an understanding-listen up mikemac-that true learning never takes place in one's comfort zone, sense of humor, proper attitude and a willingness to to obtain a thorough grounding in fundamentals. Pretty serious stuff for an 18 year old.</p>

57

<p>Penn State Univ. Honors College should be front loaded due to the type of students participating. PSU Honors has a lot of engineering,science, math and business students. Engineering is so demanding as a major that many opt out of honors programs elsewhere because they need to concentrate on their major; in fact, many engineering students, though brilliant and hard working, require 5 or even 6 years to complete their degree. Math, science and, to a lesser extent, business majors face a similiar demand within their major. Additionally, only the fittest survive in an engineering major at a rigorous school such as Penn State, so when they reach the upper level engineering courses every student and every course is honors level whether labeled as such or not.</p>

58

<p>To Garrity: I am in all likelihood going to apply to the University of Arizona for the class of '12, and my National Merit status will allow for very generous scholarships and automatic entrance into the Honors College. From what I have read, heard and seen of the Honors College, it seems to be a pretty good program. People personally connected with it have spoken in its favor, and others not affiliated with the U of A hold it in high regard. I was just wondering what specific disadvantages there are in enrolling as an Honors College student. So far what I have seen is good, but then again I suspect you are more informed about this topic than I am. So my question, in all its glory, is as follows: Should I be leery of Arizona's Honors College, and if so, why? I appreciate the help in advance.</p>

59

<p>Just a note:</p>

<p>My school can get anyone into ASU through July. That's where you go if a tier 1 school rescinds your admission and they can't get you back in.</p>

<p>ASU just sends out a lot of stuff. I could've gone to ASU without paying a penny. But it's a party school and there are much better honors colleges out there. Don't limit yourself to ASU because you haven't done the research.</p>

60

<p>Just for clarification, I am talking about the University of Arizona's Honors College, not the Arizona State University's Barrett Honors College.</p>