Hook vs. grades tradeoff

Parents Forum
21

<br>


<br>

<p>You are right, athletic uber-success is indeed very rare and excellent grade kids are much more common, which is why I lean heavily to the academic side --because it's a much more feasible route.</p>

<p>The OP is asking about getting into high-end schools. If you plan to get into HYPS by becoming a famous international athlete, then the odds are almost impossibly long that you will succeed. Only a very tiny handful of kids actually pull that off. If, however, you plan to get into HYPS by working very hard and getting great grades and test scores supplemented with some modest success at a couple of ECs that you enjoy, then that's still a tough road but it's not at all unrealistic. Thousands of kids pull it off every year.</p>

<p>By analogy if your goal were to become a millionaire, you could say my career plan is to play forward for Chicago Bulls and win a bunch of NBA championships and MVP awards. Or you could say my career plan is to go to college and get a degree and then get a good job and save my money and invest it in real estate. Both plans, if successful, would make you a millionaire, but unless you actually are as talented as Michael Jordan, you'd be far more likely to succeed by shooting for the latter plan rather than the former.</p>

22

<p>I think there are a lot of wise thoughts here. But I don't see how we can really advise without knowing a lot more -
What level of grades is she falling from/to? You've only mentioned the Phys Ed grade (I don't think I'd worry about that one; don't lots of the more academically selective colleges recalculate GPA leaving out such courses?). </p>

<p>How do you think she stands in terms of the admissions profile for her target schools before/after the grade fall-off? Are her scores and SAT/ACT scores <em>way</em> up near the top at her preferred schools? just barely in the ballpark?</p>

<p>There are no guarantees in any case, but some kids need the athletics to overcome their academics (either as recruited athlete or as excitingly interesting kid due to the international arena she's competed in). For others, it's icing on the cake.</p>

23

<p>coureur,
You make some good points, but the OP never mentioned the level of school she was looking for. She did say that her kid was already at the international level, so I assumed that she was asking if it was worth it if the child’s academics suffered somewhat (not completely). I interpreted that to mean getting some Bs and maybe an occasional C rather than all As. The Ivies have the AI so if the student completely neglects the academic side, then they will not get in regardless of their athletic "hook." </p>

<p>The OP said that her child was on the US team for whatever sport. To me, that is a big deal (unless it is something like curling) because if you're one of the best in the country at something, you're pretty darn good. Life has different stages, but there is some validity to the thinking that if you are dedicated and a worker as a teen, you are likely to live you life that way. I greatly admire the talent and work ethic and the guts (this is very underrated in my opinion) that it takes to achieve at the very highest levels of nearly anything. How many people do you know who can say that they are the number one in the country in something? It is very, very hard to do and I have a high respect for those who are dedicated enough and talented enough to pull it off. </p>

<p>Good habits developed in athletic training are vital to athletic success, but the discipline can later be applied to other fields, eg, the trading floors of Wall Street are filled with ex-college athletes or many top sales people in many computer and pharmaceutical companies came from competitive backgrounds. Or many corporate executives come from successful sports backgrounds (usually team sports). Obviously, you need a reasonably high level of intelligence to compete effectively and truly achieve at a high level in these fields, but the intangibles can take you a long way. It is great training, particularly team sports and this is why Title IX has been so valuable to this country as it has encouraged women to build these skills and win these competitions and develop the self-confidence that their male peers have gotten over the years from their athletic activities. </p>

<p>It is not just sports-the message is excellence. Great success on the national/international level in any pursuit (and I include things that paying3tuitions mentions like orchestra, dance, and theater) is hard, much harder than just getting all As and high SAT scores. Think about it for a second. What is the kid excellent in? If it is a field that requires true talent, great commitment and determination, personal courage, high persistence, etc, and the achievement level is at the national or international level, the student is going to be very attractive to many top colleges and later many employers. The high school academic record will almost certainly be a secondary consideration (assuming the level is reasonably close to some portion of the college’s entering class). It may not get her over the top at the very top schools, but it will likely put her in the game and give her the “pointyness” that many top schools are looking for today. And if she’s Karen Hughes, she’ll get into Yale or if he’s Paul Wylie, he gets into Harvard. </p>

<p>Paying3tuitions,
I’m with you on the Hebrew school and other religious schools thing. The athletic coaches need to realize that there is more to life than their teams and THEY need to be a little more flexible. The LA Dodgers didn’t kick Sandy Koufax off the team when he couldn’t pitch on the Sabbath.</p>

24

<br>


<br>

<p>Ack! Surely you meant Sarah Hughes!</p>

25

<p>The OP followed up in #3 and mentioned DIII LAC or Ivy/Patriot League and a strong likelyhood of switching to cross country for college.</p>

<p>I feel the OP posted a reasonable question; don't really think this is the appropriate thread to air complaints about coaches forcing kids to miss Hebrew school??!! (My own D has missed sporting events to attend band concerts and required school cultural events - it really is about balance and the big picture.)</p>

26

<p>sarah-yes, yes, yes. mea culpa-what was I thinking.....:)</p>

27

<p>It seems to me that the calculation is simple: if all that matters is maximizing one's chances of being admitted to a super-elite school, concentrate on grades, and maybe secondarily on an NCAA sport. As far as "credentialing" goes, having achieved national-level recognition is already in the bag. But if the extra-curricular activity is a kid's passion in life, I, for one, would urge her to pursue that, even if it meant that she had to "settle" for a superb education at a D-III LAC or Patriot League school instead of an Ivy.</p>

<p>Variations on this problem will come up in college and beyond: Should I take a semester abroad or be on-campus for what could be my sport's championship season? Should I tell the coach that I really need to study for the MCATs and write my final research proposal or run the double workouts that she wants me to do? Do I want to go to a school that will not let me compete at the national level if the national event falls during finals week, or be at a college where athletics trump academics? </p>

<p>I'm not sure that any of us on a discussion board can tell Rachacha's D how to cut those balances. It's really an individual decision.</p>

28

<p>Marathon Man, point well made:
"I'm not sure that any of us on a discussion board can tell Rachacha's D how to cut those balances. It's really an individual decision."</p>

<p>Adding to that: I wrote my first post to dignify the D by urging the Mom to create partnership with the D now, proactively. It may be age-appropriate by now to bring the daughter herself into the decision-making. The balance-of-time choices made in h.s. could certainly affect her options in two years or so. D sounds wonderful, and has the right to know and consider the logical consequences of her current balances. The Mom is taking on a great responsibility to figure out the balance when in fact it might be time to make it a heart-to-heart about which direction D wants to head. Perhaps D wants sports above all else, and is willing to seek out a "different" (not lesser!) range of schools (LOL, Marathon Man, I caught your funny--" 'settle' for superb education at a LAC Div III or Patriot League instead of an Ivy." :) That much sports talk I do understand).
If, in a few years, the grades are very good but not stratospheric, then well and good: the college list for which she'll apply will derive from D's informed choice made a few years before. Meanwhile, once they're of common mind, the Mom can help watch the balance of time so D's dreams and hopes have chance to be realized. Partners.
OTOH, if it's done piecemeal now, with Mom wondering about each grade, I think it's hard on the Mom and worse, the daughter could be disappointed, wishing someone had wised her up sooner. Only that Mom and that D know for themselves but it's a 2-way conversation. I don't know, we don't have a crystal ball, but Mom might need to rethink her dreams for particular schools, or daughter be given a reality-check that if she wants access to certain schools she might have to modify her sports enough to get the kind of transcript that those schools say, "Yup, no brainer, she qualifies, what else does she have..." rather than "beneath our range; reject!" before seeing other features.
I'm trying to paint a picture of a team with Mom and D on the same page, together balancing high school towards an agreed-to range of goals. Not to be hijacked by coaches, not to be hijacked by obsessive teachers either!
So I suggest that Mom not answer the question herself but more bring in the daughter so D can be less of the Object and more the Subject of her own story here. Both could co-manage D's schedule of coursework and competitions. It could be a GREAT outcome, indeed.</p>

29

<p>Bravo to all your posts on this thread, paying3tuitions! Are you my long-lost twin? :)</p>

<p>This mom and her D have been on the same page for quite some time, and it's made the process more bearable - and together, we've avoided hijacking from a myriad of sources!</p>

<p>LOVED the phrase "Subject of her own story"!!!! To me, that says it all, and should be every parent's mantra. Would make an interesting title of a book on the whole college application ordeal.</p>

30

<p>Sheesh.</p>

<p>Let her do what she enjoys, and don't pressure her to jump through the hoops we call grades.</p>