<p>are bonuses common for associates at the big law firms? if so, do all associates just get like the same small sum or is it based upon extra hours billed?</p>
<p>Big firm associates typically get bonuses. The bonuses at big firms vary from firm to firm -- some firms have lockstep bonuses, where everyone in a given class gets the same bonus, but most firms pay bonuses within a range depending on your class year, your performance, the firm's performance, the performance of your practice group and whether you hit your billable hours targets (at some firms). In recent years, many big firms who did not previously do so have set billable hour thresholds for all or a portion of bonuses.</p>
<p>“careerchange- sorry, but if you aren't a lawyer, you really can't speak about it can you?”</p>
<p>unbelievablem, that statement seems a little harsh in the context of this board. I qualified my statement by saying that I may be off base. However, I don’t think it is beyond a non-lawyer to offer some input. The subject of this post is what kind of hours the average lawyer works. The research I’ve seen, coupled with personal experience, leads me to believe that it is less than 60 hours per week. </p>
<p>“Current Population Survey (CPS) data from October 2003…found that lawyers less than 36 years old worked an average of 48.2 hours per week, compared to 45.0 hours by lawyers over 36.”</p>
<p>The current BLS says “Lawyers often work long hours, and of those who regularly work full time, about half work 50 hours or more per week. They may face particularly heavy pressure when a case is being tried.”</p>
<p>The work schedules of lawyers I have worked with and other lawyers I know average much less than 60 hours per week. So, given the information I have, I come to the conclusion that the number is less than 60 hours. The point of my post was that working 60 + hours a week is really hard, much much harder than working say 50 hrs per week, and people who work a lot of hours understandably may feel that they are working more than they really are.<br>
I also believe that 60+ hours is more that the average lawyer is able/willing to put up with. By “push back”, I meant that beyond a certain threshold the work just does not get done by that person. Maybe the client goes elsewhere. Maybe deadlines are missed. Or, maybe the firm hires more people to do the work. There is obviously a limit to how much a person can do. We can disagree about what that is for the average lawyer.</p>
<p>CareerChange,
Let me put it this way -- if you want to make the big bucks as a lawyer, 99% of the time you are going to be working long hours. At the law firms that pay the top salaries, 60 hours a week of billable time (keeping in mind that you do not bill every hour you are in the office -- I would approximate about 70 hours in the office to bill 60 hours) would be a relatively slow week. At these big firms, it is a lot more likely that you will bill 75+ hours per week, which means that you will be working 85-90 hours a week. There will be weeks where you bill 90+ hours a week, so you can certainly do the math on how many hours you were actually in the office to get there. </p>
<p>Can you find a job in law where you will work 40-50 hours a week? Absolutely. Generally, though, there are sacrifices in terms of salary/earnings from those jobs. Plenty of attorneys make the choice to work fewer hours and make less money every day, and there is certainly nothing at all wrong with that. You do have to make a fairly clear choice, though, as to whether you want the career path that leads to big money or whether you value time with family and friends and a relationship with sleep. I think even those lawyers who choose the big law firm route certainly consider (sometimes not infrequently) going in the other direction.</p>
<p>Sally,
I don’t dispute anything you just said. However, it appears to me the OP is asking about averages. Would you agree that while very long hours are a reality for some lawyers, this is much different than the average? If there are large numbers of lawyers out there working 90 hour and the average is 50, just imagine how many are working 40.</p>
<p>If you look at my second response on this thread, I mentioned that there are a wide range of hours worked by lawyers. Unfortunately, quoting an "average" number of hours is meaningless. Who cares if you average the 100 hours a week a corporate lawyer in NYC works with the 35 hours a week that a government lawyer in Idaho works? What meaningful information does that give you? In order to give any person an idea of what they can expect hours-wise from their chosen career path as a lawyer, we need to know what type of work that person plans to do and in what environment (e.g. big firm, small firm, private practice), including geography, that person plans to practice. The averages are vastly different from one area of practice to another, from law firm to public interest to government employment and from NY or LA to Albuquerque.</p>
<p>Sally,
The OP seems to be looking, as I am, for options that do not require an extreme work schedule. I am reasonably convinced that those options exist, but the responses thus far have not really addressed these options. I don’t think is meaningless to talk about what the lawyers who work a more average schedule are doing. Obviously, no one expects the the average lawyer to be a specific person doing a specific thing.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Sally,
The OP seems to be looking, as I am, for options that do not require an extreme work schedule. I am reasonably convinced that those options exist, but the responses thus far have not really addressed these options. I don’t think is meaningless to talk about what the lawyers who work a more average schedule are doing. Obviously, no one expects the the average lawyer to be a specific person doing a specific thing.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I don't really understand what the issue is. Less hours worked = less pay. google something like immigration law salary and you'll find that it depends on the state. In NY they make about 42k in California and Texasthey'll make 50-60k. These guys wont be working massive hours and they probably wont even have to go to a t14 law school.</p>
<p>If you're looking to make in the high range, at least initially, meaning something like 90k or up right after law school then you should understand that you will have to work crazy hours to justify it.</p>
<p>"In my experience, people exaggerate about the number of hours they work and very few people are disciplined enough to work 60 hours a weeks over a period of time longer than a month or two."</p>
<p>From your earlier post, it didn't look like you were seeking a law career with fewer hours. You seemed instead to be insinuating that many lawyers lie or exaggerate their hours.</p>
<p>I can see how my first post would come off that way and apologize. I was responding to the statement that “most lawyers work about 12 hours a day, the salary varies depending on which field you are a part of.” I do not think this is true and I don’t think it is a fair response to a person asking if 9-5 jobs are out there and what the salary might be at them.</p>
<p>careerchange - i'm sorry if you found the tone of my post harsh -- to be honest, i was responding to what i viewed as a seemingly flippant remark by you that seemed to question the statements made here by practicing lawyers as to the actual number of hours they worked and seemed to dismiss it at exaggeration. the trouble with boards like this is that it is too easy to attibute "tones" to posts that aren't intended - since you have apologized for yours, i will likewise apologize.</p>
<p>as to the underlying issue -- part of my own frustration here is that we seem to have posts here all the time from would be lawyers who come here asking -- well can't i make a great living without working the crazy hours? it just isn't like you can enter law school saying - "i am willing to work 45 hours a week in exchange for a job that pays $80,000" - and just go out and find that. many prospective law students also do not adequately appreciate the pressure that their law school loans will place on them in terms of what type of salary they will be seeking after their 3 years in school. it can take many years, if at all, for an attorney to be at the point professionally and financially where they can really control their destiny in terms of hours and pay. </p>
<p>personally, i do not think that prospective lawyers can be warned enough about how burdensome the hours likely are in the profession.</p>
<p>Some of the issues are regional. I don't know where CareerChange lives, but if it's in the Midwest or the Southwest, he's probably right. They tend to work much more humane hours in those regions. New York is notoriously horrible - I know someone there who was only able to be a best man in a wedding (over a weekend!) because he had asked six months in advance and was actually part of the wedding party - otherwise, no vacation time. </p>
<p>What irks me is the attitude that someone should pay you $135,000/year for not working very hard and being 25 years old. That's a big pile of change to throw at someone with absolutely no work experience, and I don't care how educated you are. Just something to bear in mind.</p>
<p>i worked for two different firms outside of NYC which each claimed to be "not like those big NYC firms" -- at each the partners seemed to think that this helped justify the hours they did expect from us -- "well its not like we're one of those NYC firms where the hours are even worse."</p>
<p>and yet -- i missed thanksgiving with my family because i was working 20 hour days preparing for a deal that never ended up closing. the day after i returned from a bout of mono, i was at the office until midnight working on a "deal"-- leaving earlier than my colleagues because i was still recovering. i was frequently called over vacations. i worked with an attorney who was at the office all night the night before his wedding so he could finish up what he had to get done before he left on his honeymoon. there was a partner who used to call around 9 pm many evenings to touch base with an associate - including asking, "so who else is still around?" and if associates ever "mentioned" something about the hours -- the reply -- "well, its not like we're like those big NYC firms!"</p>
<p>Even in NYC, there are plenty of firms that tout themselves as "lifestyle" firms, but I know plenty of attorneys at those firms putting in as many hours as I ever put in at the office. My friends in Atlanta, Miami, Chicago, San Fran/Palo Alto, LA, Boston and Philly seem to work some pretty crazy hours on a very regular basis, so I don't think that the hours "problem" is localized in NYC at all. </p>
<p>What prospective lawyers need to realize is that law is a client service industry. When a client says jump, you simply ask how high, and then you jump with all your force to meet or exceed that height requirement. If a client makes unreasonable demands, you can try to manage expectations, but that is not always possible. If your client meets with a prospective business partner on a Thursday and all of the parties and counsel are going to meet on Tuesday to discuss a term sheet, well that means that you are working late on Friday and all weekend to put together a term sheet, get everyone to sign off, make revisions, do as much diligence as possible, and get everything in order so that you and your client are prepared for Tuesday's meeting. This applies not only to the deals that make the cover of the Wall Street Journal, mind you, this applies to many small transactions as well. </p>
<p>In the litigation context, when there are depositions to prepare for, briefs or motions due, discovery review to complete or witnesses to interview, you have to be there as long as it takes to prepare and to be thorough. There are no second chances -- or make up exams or opportunities for extra credit (different topic, but that's also why I find the idea of taking the LSAT multiple times incredibly amusing and unrealistic). </p>
<p>While I agree that there are opportunities for lawyers to work fewer hours (and to make significantly less money), I also think that one needs to beware of firms that specifically state that they are not like the NYC firms or not like the Wall Street firms. Additionally, I, too, find it incredible that anyone would expect to be paid six figures for working 35-40 hours a week. Rarely in this world do you get something for nothing. Remember -- when that client says jump ...</p>
<p>
[quote]
What prospective lawyers need to realize is that law is a client service industry. When a client says jump, you simply ask how high, and then you jump with all your force to meet or exceed that height requirement.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>AMEN!!! This is the number one lesson that any prospective lawyer should know before they even think about taking the LSAT!!</p>
<p>And the reality of dealing with a "client" is not just true at a law firm -- if you work for the gov't, in-house for a corp, for a public interest group, whatever -- there is always a "client" -- someone else who is making the policy determinations as to what you as the lawyer will be expected to do -- and it is your job to meet those expectations. it is your job to counsel your client to allow them to make informed decisions -- but the ultimate decision is theirs. no matter how bright you are, not matter how great a law school you attended -- the client is the one setting the agenda.</p>
<p>if there are any exceptions to this out in the world, i think they are rare enough that a prospective law student shouldn't count on the possibility of finding one as the basis for their attending law school.</p>