<p>I think, however, that if one doesn’t believe in holistic admissions and one believes that admissions should be primarily stats-based, one will always find the current system not providing the desired results.</p>
<p>I don’t think there is any question that Harvard et al. do not want their student bodies to consist of <em>too</em> many of any one type of student, including those of the same racial identity:</p>
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<p>[Harvard</a> Files Amicus Brief in University of Texas Supreme Court Diversity Case | Harvard Magazine](<a href=“http://harvardmagazine.com/2012/08/harvard-files-amicus-brief]Harvard”>http://harvardmagazine.com/2012/08/harvard-files-amicus-brief)</p>
<p>The question is, how many is too many, and what can Harvard et al. lawfully do to prevent their campuses from becoming less diverse than they desire. Obviously, community outreach and recruiting of under-represented groups is one way. But is there a lawful way they can they prevent the “Citadel stormers” from taking over?</p>
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<p>Yes, it is clearly a different mind set and seems to be valued by those who want what they can point to as “objective” stats.</p>
<p>But, really, even the allegedly objective stats are not objective. Given the high correlation between socioeconomic level, test prep, and higher scores, one can hardly point to the SAT as a completely objective measure of academic potential.</p>
<p>And the ACT is allegedly based more on knowledge already gained through classroom learning and homework, and that is clearly influenced, score wise, by the quality of the k-11 education.</p>
<p>And, as has been pointed out, all school systems value their grades differently and grade differently. there is no standard curriculum.</p>
<p>To some extent, what is being argued for here is a change in the entire education “system” in the country. It is an interesting, but unworkable and, to many, myself included, undesirable concept. YMMV</p>
<p>"Personally, I don’t see this as an “asian” issue, but some people clearly see it as such. "</p>
<p>@Poetgrl,</p>
<p>Just like most of us agree that we would not really understand the obstacles African Americans face today since we are not black, I would give the same courtesy to Asian Americans since we may not truly know the challenges they have to deal with.</p>
<p>PC–</p>
<p>I actually live in a very asian area. First it was Jewish, and so the schools are amazing, and then, more asian. One day, sitting out in our back yard, my very good friend, who happens to be Japanese American, said, and I quote, “the schools are getting so competitive now that we are getting more indians.”</p>
<p>I’m not even sure why asians are categorized in a monolithic group for the purposes of the CDS, but they are. I think the best way to get a good holistic admission would be to get rid of the racial information and names and see what happens.</p>
<p>I’d bet it would come out pretty similar, at least at the Ivies, who get to choose from pretty much everyone.</p>
<p>Because, they still are not going to accept perfect scores and grades without trombone players and percussionists and quarterbacks and leads for the plays and people who can paint and sing, etc…</p>
<p>Texas is not uniform across board in their grading or ranking in their public schools.</p>
<p>I think a school can come up with their own mechanism but I could be wrong and the policy is only at school district level.</p>
<p>There are three tiers in Houston school district. Advanced, honors and AP. Both honors AP classes have an extra point. So people ignore all regular level classes and take the minimum required for graduation in order to maximize their GPA. A valedictorian usually has a 4.9 GPA after taking only about 2.5 credits of 4.0 classes needed for graduation. Someone taking an extra 4.0 class for fun can drop their rank by 1-2% points right away and so it takes away from the education because all classes taken are included in the rank and kids can’t something because they like it without worrying about the impact to rank/GPA. I have heard about colleges ignoring the extra points but the counselor recommendation will reflect your standing in the school based on the GPA.</p>
<p>Yet there are other schools/districts in Houston which dont weigh their advanced classes. There is one school famous for having 30 valedictorians with 4.0 GPAs because they don’t discriminate between AP vs regular classes. It is a miracle how colleges figure out who is good.</p>
<p>Then there are other schools which probably don’t offer any APs at all because the students are not good enough or they call them APs but no one takes the test because they will fail. </p>
<p>Then there are school districts which don’t count classes upto 8th grade in GPA/rank even though they are on the high school resume while there are others that will count them and include in GPA. </p>
<p>Just think of what happens when someone transfers between schools that give weight to APs vs don’t, include middle school classes vs don’t etc and you figure out how hard it is rig the system if you don’t follow it all the way.</p>
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The Hall of Fame uses holistic admissions.
And the travesty is ranking Jeff Beck at 14. ;)</p>
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<p>Even though some of the aspects of the application would still be too subjective for me, I agree with this. I would say this is a step in the right direction in eliminating any racial preferences.</p>
<p>What’s wrong with subjectivity?</p>
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<p>That sounds like a U of Chicago admissions essay question.</p>
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Thanks! And I’ll take all the rep points I can get, in any denomination. I think I’m on the verge of another green box.</p>
<p>PCHope, most posters arguing there is discrimation have not identified their own backgrounds. I don’t think we know where some are “coming from,” in their perspectives.</p>
<p>Kids can state the subset of their ethnic identity- eg, Philippino vs Chinese vs Pakistani. I suppose this could open further arguments re: which Asians suffer greater prejudce.</p>
<p>The elite preps, many boarding schools, can also pool large numbers of vals, sometimes using tiers instead of absolute ranking- and it’s not unusual to see AP Test Prep as the 2nd semester of an AP, at some of these. And other shenanigans. There’s a question on the GC page- how many additional students share this rank.</p>
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<p>Hunt, I always appreciate your posts and will happily rep you in 2 hours when my next allowance comes in. I should note, in case you don’t yet know, that your second light green requires 200 points rather than 100 like the earlier ones.</p>
<p>“What’s wrong with subjectivity?”</p>
<p>I worry that there are too many ways to ‘game’ the system.</p>
<p>From my earlier post #683
“For me, the lottery system levels the playing field. No one is advantaged because of their race; nor because they had the resources to hire a college consultant to paint a desired picture on the application; nor because their mom was friends with the teacher recommender; nor because their heavily edited quirky essay was especially appealing to an adcom; etc… Everyone has an equal chance of getting in because they are more than qualified.”</p>
<p>Suppose you could see a difference among similar stats kids, based on the non-stats elements. Would that make you redefine the best of the playing field? Eg, kids with a higher level of involvement and impact in their ECs? STEMs who did research, pre-meds who worked in the health field, etc, versus just a member of stu govt or pres of the book club? I’m concerned just relying on stats lowers the standards/expectations.</p>
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<p>How do you know the differences you perceive make a difference once students enter college? Thinking about a handful of students that come to mind will result in drawing conclusions from a small and biased sample.</p>
<p>It is well established that high school grades and test scores predict college grades and graduation rates. As I have said before, if admissions committees use subjective inputs such as ECs, research, teacher recommendations, and essays, they ought to quantify the value added by these inputs. Since few people think essays and ECs predict grades, the first step is to think about what they might predict.</p>
<p>In 2008 two NYT readers asked some admissions officers some questions about the validity of admissions criteria:</p>
<p>[Q</a>. and A.: College Admissions - NYTimes.com](<a href=“http://questions.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/12/17/qa-college-admissions/]Q”>Q. and A.: College Admissions - The New York Times)</p>
<p>How well do the criteria used in the admissions process predict future college success? Do colleges track their students four-year GPAs and such and look for correlations with admissions data? If so, what kinds of trends do you see?
Jen</p>
<p>What procedures do you have in place to measure the fairness of your process? What kind of follow-up do you do on your decisions? In what circumstances would you consider one of your decisions to be a failure?
Margaret Heisel</p>
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<p>The officers’ answers are at the site. The only outcomes they have studied are college grades and graduation rates, so they really have no idea if their holistic process is adding value.</p>
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<p>If Brown broke out the admissions rates conditional on SAT scores further by race, so that we could see what fraction of white, black, Hispanic, and Asian students with SAT Critical Reading scores of 750-790 were admitted, do people doubt that the admissions rates by race controlling for SAT scores would look very different?</p>
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<p>I really appreciate this. PCHope, you make a very good point which deserves reflection.</p>
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<p>I don’t object to charities such as the UNCF giving scholarships, but
looking at [Diversity</a> Award | Student Financial Aid | University of Missouri](<a href=“http://financialaid.missouri.edu/types-of-aid/scholarships/scholarships/diversity-award/index.php]Diversity”>http://financialaid.missouri.edu/types-of-aid/scholarships/scholarships/diversity-award/index.php) there is no mention of private outside funding for the $2500 annual scholarships that are open to “member[s] of an ethnic group that is under-represented at the University when compared to the total population of the state of Missouri”. </p>
<p>For a university to give scholarships based on race is financially equivalent to imposing a surcharge on the non-preferred, which I assume you would oppose.</p>
<p>^^^With all due respect, Beliavsky, where do you think state universities (or any kind of universities or colleges) get their scholarship money? Even if they don’t identify a particular funder, these scholarship monies come from donations. At least that’s how it has worked at every institution of higher education with which I’m familiar. What has other people’s experience been?</p>