How corrupt are Ivy League admissions?

[bogibogi]

<p>

The “controversy” consists of a handful of people who wish things were different, and who regard Harvard’s admissions department as some sort of community good to be expropriated from private hands, whining incessantly.

</p>

<p>Am I whining? Sorry if I was whining. I thought I was having a discussion. You can’t accuse me of being incessant though because I only have about 100+ posts.</p>

[Periwinkle]

<p>

Do you KNOW this is what is happening, or are you putting a spin on the information presented?

The state end-of-course tests do not show a plunge in results, at least for the years 2008-9, 2009-10, and 2010-11: <a href=“FCPS - School Profiles - - Virginia Standards of Learning (SOL)”>http://schoolprofiles.fcps.edu/schlprfl/f?p=108:18:398891237491624::NO::P0_CURRENT_SCHOOL_ID:300&lt;/a&gt; They do show a shift in excellence.</p>

<p>The state end-of-course tests do show improvements in the number of students scoring at the advanced level on Writing, History and Algebra 1, Algebra 2, and Earth Science. In contrast, fewer students are scoring at the advanced level for Chemistry, Biology, and Geometry.</p>

[OHMomof2]

<p>

TJHSST - 46%, Stuy - 72%. I would be surprised if these hallways are overrun by “textureless drones”; instead, I would imagine that they are vibrant communities filled with overachieving, ambitious students. So the disparity of these numbers compared to the Asian makeup of Harvard, et al. just does not jibe with me.

</p>

<p>Absolutely agree on the “drone” thing…but you are naming schools in areas with very high Asian populations to begin with, a feature the UCs with high Asian enrollment share.</p>

<p>If a selective high school in Montana has very low Asian enrollment, might that be because there are very few Asians living there? Or is it necessarily because that HS is discriminating against Asians?</p>

[absweetmarie]

<p>Thanks for the data, Periwinkle. The link sent me to data for 2009-10, 2010-11 and 2011-12, FWIW. What I’m seeing doesn’t indicate a major shift in advanced level achievement in writing for those three academic years (94.7, 91.3, 96.7), but that may be a matter of definition; your “shift in excellence” is my “year-to-year fluctuations within a very high-achieving cohort,” especially since we don’t know how many of the “pass/proficient” people are close to “pass/advanced,” and vice versa. The biggest drop I’m seeing is in biology: 83.5 percent advanced level pass 2009-10, then 85.8, then 76.7. In any case, it would be interesting to see data on how these kids are doing with regard to more advanced mathematics, as I assumed the “work” that was being referenced was more along the lines of calculus than geometry. Even so, the “Virginia Standards of Learning” data for the three years I’m looking at don’t show a precipitous decline across any of these state-measured indicators.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

Is there no room for the possibility that an applicant can be hugely disappointed by a rejection and still be happy for their fellow classmates without being a SAT-loving, entitled, FOB who wants things to be like their home country? I agree that a lot of these kids ending up at “lesser” schools will be fine and will succeed in life, but is it wrong to question the current policies where continuing controversy surrounding this issue suggests that something is amiss?

</p>

<p>JHS has already addressed well the fact that there is nothing even remotely resembling a “continuing controversy” - that the “problem” of the 2390 student who gets rejected by Harvard and has to settle for Tufts is about the firstiest of first world problems ever.</p>

<p>And no one says that one can’t be hugely disappointed by a rejection. But it’s what you do with those feelings that provides insight into your character – and character, believe it or not, can be just as important if not more important than raw-brains-and-smarts.</p>

<p>You have two choices when faced with a rejection from HYP, after you’ve had yourself a good cry and either ice cream or a vodka martini depending on whether you’re the kid or the parent. </p>

<p>1) You can pick yourself up, dust yourself off, exclaim that it’s their loss, look at the situation objectively and realize that it’s not even remotely the end of the world, and go off and kick butt at some other school. </p>

<p>2) Or you can turn that rage and anger towards trying to figure out “who stole” that spot, perpetuating the notion that you had a spot that was stolen in the first, perpetuating the notion that all that should count in life are SAT scores, and perpetuating the notion that URM’s at elite schools must have been pity-admits.</p>

<p>Don’t think that adcoms can’t read between the lines as to who is likely to fall into camp #1 and camp #2. And ironically, they’re going to prefer the camp #1’s to the camp #2’s anyway. Entitlement is ugly.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

The “controversy” consists of a handful of people who wish things were different, and who regard Harvard’s admissions department as some sort of community good to be expropriated from private hands, whining incessantly. </p>

<p>Am I whining? Sorry if I was whining. I thought I was having a discussion.

</p>

<p>I for one don’t think you’re whining. I just think that you are elevating Harvard’s status to more than it really is. It’s a very good college. There are about 20 others that offer probably 95% of the same opportunities. Then there are a bunch that offer, oh, I don’t know, 85% of the same opportunities. Whatever. Not getting admitted to Harvard just isn’t the life-deal-breaker that you think it is. Not in the US in the year 2012. It’s unfortunate that all the Harvard-qualified kids can’t get to attend, but that’s life with a 5% admission rate.</p>

[PCHope]

<p>"Well, more Asian-American students apply to TJ than any other ethnic group: <a href=“http://www.fcps.edu/cco/pr/tj/tjadmissions0412.pdf[/url]”>http://www.fcps.edu/cco/pr/tj/tjadmissions0412.pdf&lt;/a&gt; Asian-Americans are 42.9% of the applicant pool. "</p>

<p>You are absolutely correct. </p>

<p>However, one cannot help but to note that, with 42.9% of the applicants, Asians count for 64.2% of the accepts. By comparison, whites are 36.2% of the applicants and 26.3% of the admits.</p>

[bogibogi]

<p>

JHS has already addressed well the fact that there is nothing even remotely resembling a “continuing controversy” - that the “problem” of the 2390 student who gets rejected by Harvard and has to settle for Tufts is about the firstiest of first world problems ever.

</p>

<p>When there are non-stop articles, studies, books, debates and lawsuits relating to this issue, I see it as continuing. I am the first to agree that not going to Harvard is a first world problem. </p>

<p>

I just think that you are elevating Harvard’s status to more than it really is.

</p>

<p>Like I said, my kids did not apply to any of the Ivy League, so I don’t think they are “all that”. However, I am not going to judge people who believe it is something important to them.</p>

<p>

You have two choices when faced with a rejection from HYP, after you’ve had yourself a good cry and either ice cream or a vodka martini depending on whether you’re the kid or the parent…1) You can pick yourself up, dust yourself off, 2) Or you can turn that rage and anger towards trying to figure out “who stole” that spot.

</p>

<p>I don’t believe it is an either/or proposition. I think that there are varying degrees in between both extremes.</p>

[lookingforward]

<p>* that any admissions dean with a brain is already considering how to respond appropriately in the wake of the Fisher case, even if they’re not compelled to do so immediately.*</p>

<p>They have been aware of each ripple, all along; they aren’t immune to the calls after notices go out (incl from lawyers,) plenty of kids/parents convinced they were an automatic and that they were robbed. Upset, sometimes threatening and sometimes asking what one piece was missing, what one thing it must have been. All this plus Fisher or Jian Li related concerns have already led to cautiousness. </p>

<p>The non-stop articles? Lots that’s inflammatory among them, groups and individuals that we can name, who aren’t hard to id in a brief google search. Some 2ndary reports in the common media. And yes, some reflections elsewhere, includng the Chron- but hardly what I’d call front page attention or national concern. Some little snafu with the big college sports teams gets far more people riled.</p>

[Periwinkle]

<p>@PCHope

However, one cannot help but to note that, with 42.9% of the applicants, Asians count for 64.2% of the accepts. By comparison, whites are 36.2% of the applicants and 26.3% of the admits.

</p>

<p>Yes, according to the chart in this Washington Post article, the number of Asian students at TJ has increased markedly since 2000 (from 78 to 276). Efforts to increase diversity have failed; fewer white students are enrolled (from 290 to 166), and the Black and Hispanic enrollment is now 4%, according to the article.
[Black</a>, Hispanic students dwindle at elite Va. public school](<a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/30/AR2010103003460.html]Black”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/30/AR2010103003460.html)</p>

<p>I have no idea how that squares with the supposed increase in students who need remediation. It does, however, make it difficult to argue that Asian students are underrepresented in the Ivies. One could say that it has nothing whatsoever to do with the Ivies or holistic admissions. It’s just as likely that the county’s K-8 math program is faulty. </p>

<p>See: [Math</a> and science gaps found at elite Fairfax school - Washington Post](<a href=“http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2012-05-30/local/35456582_1_math-and-science-algebra-ii-student-performance]Math”>http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2012-05-30/local/35456582_1_math-and-science-algebra-ii-student-performance) If academically ambitious students are accelerating too quickly through math topics in order to reach advanced levels in math, it could be that they are missing essential concepts. From a distance, none of us can tell whether it’s the selection criteria or the K-8 math curriculum which are at fault.</p>

[bogibogi]

<p>

Don’t think that adcoms can’t read between the lines as to who is likely to fall into camp #1 and camp #2. And ironically, they’re going to prefer the camp #1’s to the camp #2’s anyway. Entitlement is ugly.

</p>

<p>No, I don’t think that they can tell because their paid consultant/editor made it possible.
See: [Asian</a> Advantage College Consulting LLC](<a href=“http://www.asianadvantage.net/services.html]Asian”>http://www.asianadvantage.net/services.html)</p>

<p>

but hardly what I’d call front page attention or national concern. Some little snafu with the big college sports teams gets far more people riled.

</p>

<p>Therein lies the problem. There are very few people who will stand up to bat for what they presume to be the “SAT-loving, entitled, FOB who wants things to be like their home country.”</p>

<p>Again, I give you the famous words of PCHope:

Just like most of us agree that we would not really understand the obstacles African Americans face today since we are not black, I would give the same courtesy to Asian Americans since we may not truly know the challenges they have to deal with.

</p>

[JHS]

<p>Where are the “non-stop articles, studies, books, debates and lawsuits”?</p>

<p>As far as I know, almost all of the public discussion about Ivy League admissions practices has been focused on (a) historical discrimination against Jews and Catholics, and (b) possible current discrimination against Asians. All of which are interesting topics, but have little or nothing to do with the actual admissions practices, except that if admissions practices were changed to be completely numbers-based many presume Asian enrollment would increase. But there is nothing in holistic admissions which makes anyone discriminate against Asian students or any other students.</p>

<p>In any event, the release of the information about this year’s entering class at the universities we are talking about makes me a lot less interested in this topic, because it sure looks like admissions departments are trying to do a better job of treating Asian applicants as individuals. I was really troubled by persistent, tight bands of Asian acceptances and enrollment around 15% of the total, but 25%+ sounds like not so much of a problem to me, even if one could devise a set of admission criteria that would make it 35%. </p>

<p>The other debate, which is really not the same debate at all, is over affirmative action. that has gotten so tired and boring there is nothing more to say about it. Because affirmative action can be compatible with any system, it doesn’t really bear on the debate about what system you ought to have.</p>

<p>The thing that is surreal is a group of people treating Harvard et al. as so great that any limitation on access to it is a fundamental violation, but complaining about and attacking the system that has contributed to making it that great and admired.</p>

[lookingforward]

<p>Bogi, not all kids use advisors and not all advisors write the whole app (these services are very expensive; some go for help on the big essay only.) It is not always easy to tell what whole apps were “influenced,” but it’s not hard either to suspect something is on a level not consistent with the kid’s academics, ECs and LoRs. And, that’s a flag.</p>

<p>Also, how many of these advisors have current admissions related experience, if any? Or close enough contact with a breadth of adcoms that they can really fulfill their promises? I don’t see them as magic solutions. Or threats.</p>

[Beliavsky]

<p>

@JHS

Of course, it’s not wrong to question anything you feel like questioning. But outside of this website and some other nooks and crannies, there isn’t anything like a “continuing controversy” surrounding holistic admissions practices at elite colleges. 99% of the people couldn’t care less either way, and the vast majority of the people closest to the institutions – their trustees, administrators, faculties, alumni, and students – are strong supporters of the current system (with regular tweaking, of course, to maintain fairness).

</p>

<p>I read the Harvard Crimson periodically and have seen several recent opinion pieces on affirmative action, which drew many comments. One can search “harvard crimson affirmative action” to find them. An essay [Harvard</a> Undergrads Try and Fail to Discuss Affirmative Action | The Institute of Politics at Harvard University](<a href=“http://www.iop.harvard.edu/harvard-undergrads-try-and-fail-discuss-affirmative-action]Harvard”>http://www.iop.harvard.edu/harvard-undergrads-try-and-fail-discuss-affirmative-action) notes that one reason affirmative action is not discussed more at places like Harvard is that critics of it are often demonized.</p>

<p>"I’ve witnessed smaller-scale versions of this ordeal play out many times in dorm rooms and dining halls at Harvard. One student is discussing a social issue frankly and before long another student accuses him or her of being a racist or a bigot. Discussion is shut down, there are a lot of hurt feelings on both sides, and no one is any better off.</p>

<p>This is what has surprised me most about Harvard. When I chose to go here, I never thought the students would be so intolerant of opinions different than their own, so judgmental, and so quick to call anyone who disagrees with them names. Before Harvard, I’d never met people who unashamedly admit they won’t be friends with people who disagree with them on politics.</p>

<p>On all issues, but especially race, this climate is poisonous. Several white students I know say they are unwilling to discuss race on campus, for fear that they will be rewarded for their honesty with a Doe-like wave of character defamation. After this, who can blame them?"</p>

[OHMomof2]

<p>I’ve read that adcoms can detect “packaged” consultant produced apps and essays. Of course we’ll never know if that’s true, but it seems reasonable that certain methods of packaging are probably recognizable.</p>

[Hunt]

<p>

However, you cannot ignore the fact that TJ, which uses “holistic” admissions, has 2X as many Asians as the “elite” colleges. Perhaps it is because they are not <em>allowed</em> to use race as a factor in admissions?

Well, TJ is an all-STEM school, and the elite colleges aren’t. This, I think, supports my hypothesis that disproportionate identification as STEM majors limits Asian kids at the elites. Part of holistic admissions for colleges means getting some classics majors, lots of English majors, etc. That’s not really the case for TJ (or for MIT, which has 30% Asian-American’s, plus 8% unspecified internationals).</p>

[bogibogi]

<p>“I’ve read that adcoms can detect “packaged” consultant produced apps and essays. Of course we’ll never know if that’s true, but it seems reasonable that certain methods of packaging are probably recognizable.”</p>

<p>That may be true OHMom2, but I know way too many kids who got into great colleges, using consultants, to believe that that is universal.</p>

[collegealum314]

<p>

Well, TJ is an all-STEM school, and the elite colleges aren’t. This, I think, supports my hypothesis that disproportionate identification as STEM majors limits Asian kids at the elites. Part of holistic admissions for colleges means getting some classics majors, lots of English majors, etc. That’s not really the case for TJ (or for MIT, which has 30% Asian-American’s, plus 8% unspecified internationals).

</p>

<p>I’d bet TJ turns out a lot of humanities majors as well. Some of these are premeds, but others just prefer the humanities. </p>

<p>Math and science magnet high school alumni are more diverse in their interests and direction than, say, the alumni of MIT. Math and science magnet schools are a lot closer to a Williams-type atmosphere than Harvey Mudd or MIT.</p>

[bogibogi]

<p>“Well, TJ is an all-STEM school, and the elite colleges aren’t.”</p>

<p>Well, so they say. The word on the street is that the last few admissions cycles put more emphasis on essays, teacher recs, etc. than pure STEM talent, presumabley to increase diversity. Yet the percentage of Asians stayed the same (or up? I’m not sure).</p>

<p>But I agree, that if Asians are STEM focused, it may limit their options.</p>

[texaspg]

<p>Yale adcoms have been reading this thread. </p>

<p>It is worrisome that the first few reporting admissions in CC for Yale EA are Asian males.</p>