<p>(as per title)</p>
<p>I have not seen anything that would make me think the U of C is a cut-throat place, but it's possible that some people feel a sort of competitive pressure. Whether or not one feels competitive press depends on four big variables. They are:</p>
<p>1) What you consider to be "cut-throat." As in, some people think talking about grades is HORRENDOUS, others see it as part of the "experience."
2) The kinds of classes you take
3) The kinds of people you spend a lot of time with
4) What you're used to in high school.</p>
<p>1) is pretty self-explanatory. Everybody has different ways of seeing their work and their grades.</p>
<p>2) is more or less directed at classes that are pre-med requirements or are other places where everybody who is taking the class wants the same result and the same end goal that you do. A classroom where everybody wants to be a doctor could feel a little more tense than a class where everybody wants to be different things.</p>
<p>3) I want to do thing A, to be successful at thing A I should to 1, 2, and 3; my best friend wants to to thing B, and to be successful at thing B she should do 4, 5, and 6. Because my friends and I want very different things, our competitive drives don't intersect each other. We have a very easy time congratulating each other when each has done something spectacular and we're also open in talking about what sorts of opportunities we didn't get.</p>
<p>4) Many of my friends in high school knew each others' grades and scores and spent a lot of time measuring themselves against each other. I don't see that here. I see a lot of students working and studying together and I hear about a lot of people forming study groups.</p>
<p>In short, if you don't want to find focused and hyper-competitive people here, you won't. I'm sure they exist, but given that I don't know them , I feel there's a good chance that you won't either. My feeling has always been that the people who go here come here first because they want to learn and that almost everything else takes a back seat for a while; as a result, I think you end up surrounded by a group of people who generally like doing what they do and don't feel the need to gloat about it.</p>
<p>^ Nicely presented. Makes me like UofC even more because my high school is all about comparing. I don't to compare.</p>
<p>I probably do more work and harder work here than I did in high school, but I absolutely feel less stressed about it here, mostly because the people around me don't make me feel like I need to stress out about it, and that makes a big difference.</p>
<p>Parent POV here---- When my peers with students at Chicago talk I never hear about their kids' grades. When my peers with kids at ivys and big name schools talk, they always drop "Dean's List " or GPA into the conversation. Is that a reflection of school culture or family priorities? Or maybe just my small sample set. hmmmmm</p>
<p>Other parent perspective: As a parent whose children have spent 5-1/2 student-years at the University of Chicago, including one pre-med, I have never heard a single complaint about competitiveness among students. There may be some people who like to hear themselves talk, but -- especially in math and science -- the overwhelming spirit seems to be teamwork and helping each other out, not who's gonna be first.</p>
<p>Also: Scav Hunt is about as competitive as Chicago gets. Some of the scavvies take it way, way too seriously. But one year I witnessed at least part of the judging at the end, and it was really moving how appreciative everyone -- competitors and judges alike -- was of anything remotely cool that anyone had done. And sometimes, they could be appreciative and supportive about something that wasn't cool at all, just because it was clear that the kid responsible could use some appreciation and support.</p>
<p>The undergraduate culture at UChicago, perhaps more so than at other schools, is influenced greatly by the various graduate schools on campus. The fact that college students are outnumbered by grad students has several effects:</p>
<p>1) It tends to suppress the "Animal House" tendencies of the college students
2) Undergrads are encouraged to see themselves as scholars on par with the grad students at large. This results in a generally more mature and serious student body with far fewer remnants of vestigial high school behavior.
3) Overly competitive students who obsess over grades tend to be frowned upon by their peers as crass and juvenile.
4) There are so many off beat yet brilliant kids at Chicago that you soon realize that your GPA really means very little. Some of the most brilliant kids at Chicago have middling GPA's (for whatever reason) and using your grades to affirm yourself is a losing proposition.</p>
<p>I agree with all of that, tk.</p>
<p>I'll also put out there that my friends include people who have received some of the most competitive awards and internships in the country, including one good friend who did not tell me that she received a famous scholarship even after I helped her with her application and also did not tell me she landed an extremely competitive job until I ran into her on campus recently. Similar things are true for other friends who are extremely quiet about their accomplishments, so much so that I feel nosy asking about it.</p>
<p>I think this trend probably exists at most great schools, but it might be more of a thing at Chicago based on the kind of person who chooses Chicago. You're already looking at a population that eschews some amount of pre-professional majors, national and universally recognized glory, and grade hyperinflation for a great education and a great college experience.</p>
<p>Not at all. Likely for benefit from a bit more student-towards-students rivalry in grades and so forth.</p>
<p>The other thing that makes the place less competitive is that the U goes out of its way to keep private basic stats about GPA. I dare anyone to find anything official (i.e. from a U source, not the Maroon...) that mentions anything about average GPA, GPA distribution or anything closely related. </p>
<p>BTW, the funny thing about grades is that the grade grubbers either lie or round up so vigorously that the effect is the same. So you can't really know where you stand vis a vis your friends. It is true that some faculty post the stats for exam performance, so you know how you did relative to the rest of the class, but that's about as good as it gets.</p>
<p>So, S1 gets his grades last quarter and low and behold he has a B+ in one of his courses. He was perplexed because the prof had contacted him after the course to commend him on his work and to ask if he could use his final papers for a project he was working on (S1 had said, yes, of course). One day he ran into the prof (very well respected full professor), and asked good-naturedly about what it took to get an A. The prof said he hadn't figured that out yet, that's why he hasn't ever given any. So, relative GPA is highly variable not only across disciplines, but across profs as well. S1 loved the answer and is very pleased with his B+.</p>
<p>Well, that's another thing. The good grades I've gotten came easily and weren't important to me and some of the lower grades I've gotten have been more meaningful.</p>
<p>That said, I've been in the position to see some students' GPAs, and I was pleasantly surprised by what I saw. Either all U of C students are superhuman or it really is possible to have a full course load, a job, a few meaningful extracurriculars, a social life, and end up in the 3.5+ range.</p>
<p>i love UChicago. My visit confirmed something that was very important to me. The students are very helpful to each other. If someone is struggling with calc, well then a math major or someone takes an hour to talk through the problem set. </p>
<p>To me (although i don't really know much) the important part to stress the the prominence of the "graduate school" mindset. Everything is laid back and tolerant. But when it comes down to the wire people perform at a high level.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Either all U of C students are superhuman or it really is possible to have a full course load, a job, a few meaningful extracurriculars, a social life, and end up in the 3.5+ range.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Try full course load (with honors and grad level courses), 20+ hours per week working in a lab, two time consuming ECs, and a 3.9 GPA. That happens too. :)</p>
<p>I think for a lot of students they do well in spite of their best efforts. By that I mean that the goal is not to get great grades. The goal for many is to learn - the grades just come. </p>
<p>Sure there are students that just do enough to get by, and I'm sure there are some pre-med and pre-law that will do anything to get a GPA 0.1 higher. But I think UofC's legendary (and perhaps inaccurate!) reputation for grade deflation leads a lot of kids who just want a high GPA to go elsewhere. After all, reputedly, there are many alternatives where it is easier to get a high GPA (even though popular wisdom may be innacurate), so why take the risk at UofC. </p>
<p>In fact, I might argue that UofC's reputation works to the advantage of its students. Consider; to the extent that UofC is not really grade deflated (which it appears is the case) while at the same time adcoms at law and med schools believe it is, UofC students can only win. The playing field will be level at those places that use formulaic admissons, and will give an edge to those places that are more holistic.</p>
<p>Let us not broadcast this theory, lest some adcoms catch on, to the detriment of current UofC students.</p>
<p>Hey, anyone can be a little innacurate!</p>
<p>Remember that the admissions committees at top law schools and medical schools probably know more about University of Chicago grading relative to its peer institutions than anyone, more than anyone at the University knows. They know because they must get close to a hundred applications a year from Chicago and from each of Harvard, Yale, Northwestern, Brown, Stanford, WashU, Hopkins, etc. By and large, the people applying from those colleges will be very similar people: similar interests, similar demographics, similar range of majors, similar range of LSATs/MCATs. With the data on their systems, the professional school admissions staff can probably push a button to run a regression of GPAs vs. major, undergraduate institution, and standardized test scores. I don't think that "reputation" is likely to fool them for long.</p>
<p>JHS, Funny thing is that they do all you say. There is even a discipline called "institutional research" that studies things like this and much more.</p>
<p>At the same time, the folks doing admissions are often not specialists, and can't help but let their biases enter into the decision process. </p>
<p>So there may be hope for the poor UofC grad with the beastly reputation.</p>
<p>I should add that my own D, in an interview with folks for a major scholarship, was asked quite a few questions about how difficult UofC was reputed to be. And they seemed very impressed with a UofC background, even though they deal with HYPS types all the time, both in the scholarship competition and professionally. </p>
<p>So more and more I am thinking the UofC reputation is of benefit to students....</p>
<p>I am not arguing that the University of Chicago's reputation doesn't help its students. Of course it does. I was just suggesting that the Harvard Law School admissions staff -- with or without institutional research support -- probably has a pretty precise idea of the actual levels of grade inflation at all of the top colleges. It's like all those private schools in New York that refuse to rank their students. That's fine, but Harvard, Yale, and Princeton probably get enough applications from each class that they could generate the rankings themselves.</p>
<p>Why do the U of C students think that those who "obsess over grades" are juvenile and crass? What do they care what other people value? It seems a little juvenile on their part to pass judgment on someone who holds gpa in high esteem: after all gpa is one of the defining factors in determining graduate admissions. Moreover, I would hope that U of C was not one of those easy schools where anybody could get a high gpa but people don't because they think they are too mature for that kind of thing. A high gpa should be a biproduct of the learning that many U of C students hold dear to their principles.</p>
<p>I think only certain U of C students pass that judgment. That group tends to have a very different outlook on life - they are often very comfortable financially and don't have to worry about maintaining scholarships with GPA requirements and aren't gung-ho about Professional opportunities.</p>
<p>The other camp is far milder in my opinion. People don't necessarily compete or discuss GPA but it is certainly a concern for many students. Personally, I think it's very important and I think there are only a few classes that are worth bombing in order to learn what is taught. Those classes usually don't fit into anyone's major.</p>
<p>ChaoticOrder, while i can't speak for everyone else, I have a problem, not with those who strive for the best grades that they are capable of attaining, but those who need to constantly know the GPAs of those around them and determine intelligence by GPA.</p>