<p>Really, I don’t see why they had to go away. I bet <em>I</em> could program them back in.</p>
<p>I think it depends an awful lot on your financial situation. We had admissions from a state flagship and a couple of privates that didn’t provide full FAFSA aid so we would have had to take out over 100,000 in loans/remortgage the house. That wouldn’t have been possible. However two of the better privates offered pretty close to full aid, which was almost the same as what we would have paid at the state flagship. Our D did an admitted students’ visit and loved one of the prestigious private schools, so we decided to go with that. She also had the opportunity to go to one of the lower-prestige state schools on close to a full ride. However, since this highly-selective option was possible with a very tight budget we decided to go with that. The one thing I would have done differently was to not even have my D bother to apply to the schools that don’t provide no loan aid that meets what the FAFSA indicates.</p>
<p>Not sure of your point here. The poster you have quoted used mature and respectful language while stating his opinion & did not use phrases such as “grimy commuter college” and make ridiculous statements such as “where you send your kids to college is a scoreboard of your success as parents.” I don’t see the comparison. That said, whether or not you are a ■■■■■, I feel as if I am feeding one by responding to your posts on this and other threads so I am done.</p>
<p>@stmarys14, your views would be funny if they weren’t so sad. I really hope you don’t carry your current worldview through adulthood because they are going to keep you miserable.</p>
<p>The real world is much more complex and nuanced than your fantasy.</p>
<p>Instead of labeling any poster, thus responding in kind, we can acknowledge that what stmarys14 is saying is, SADLY, what many are thinking.
Ranking, stats, all the rest- they speak little of content nor of what an individual will go on to achieve. But we do rely on them somewhat is strategizing and navigating our way. More so on CC that anywhere else I have spent any time.</p>
<p>But “parental scoreboard” is really made of a different cloth, and possibly this poster is young (I don’t know) and is not aware how much we value our children’s happiness and social functionality, not only the labels they wear.</p>
<p>I have no horse in this particular kerfuffle, because, according to this poster’s sentiment, our kids fit into his/hers “betters” criteria. I can’t quite wrap my head around this being <em>my</em> achievement on any level, though.</p>
<p>And everyone would benefit from at least considering the points made in Malcolm Gladwell’s latest book, DAVID AND GOLIATH, about the very real-life advantages of being disadvantaged in terms of not going to elite schools and more. No self-soothing hypocrisy, but facts about the folly of some conventional perceptions.</p>
<p>It all depends on your world view and how you define success. My “parental scoreboard” is 8 beautiful, intelligent, funny children ages 25 down to 4. They know that the world is not all about them or money or prestige. They know success comes from hard work–not anyone, parental or otherwise, handing it to them.</p>
<p>I don’t need a college name attached to my children’s higher education to affirm my role as a parent or define my success in parenting. My current graduating high school sr’s full scholarship to a lowly state flagship is something he earned. He doesn’t need to look to me or my pocketbook to know that he is completely capable of making a success of himself by himself with us rooting him on. And no, he doesn’t know that kids at the top 25 are brighter than he is–they simply have 1 of 3 things he doesn’t have: 1-parents with enough $$ to pay for attendance, 2- parents willing to take out loans (which we are not), or 3-fits the pattern of meeting need actually meaning parents can afford their EFC. It really is completely irrelevant how bright he is b/c acceptance does not mean the ability to attend w/o $$.</p>
<p>FWIW, our kids would never ask us to jeopardize our family’s financial security for their “dream” school. They are too mature to see things solely through the prism of their own wants. I see that as far more “parental success” than anything $$ can buy. </p>
<p>stmarys14 and the recently departed dm2017 seem to have some remarkable similarities, including interest in IB, University of Michigan, computer science, and rather deeply rooted bitterness toward adults and people who don’t share their opinions. Their writing styles are almost indistinguishable from one another as well.</p>
<p>Hmmmm…I’ve noticed that, too. </p>
<p>
On general, how does the financial aid office decide to give a student Perkins loan instead of Stafford loan (unsubsidized one, as DS is no longer an UG student)?</p>
<p>I believe DS got both in one year, but in all other years, he only got Stafford (unsubsidized). If I remember it correctly, Perkins is the loan with the smaller amount and its interests rate is slightly lower. So, is it “better”?</p>
<p>Thanks in advance.</p>
<p>
The orchestra at the college was an important factor for DS BEFORE he set his foot on campus. In the end, what he was really interested in was the opportunity to play with other kids with the same interest. He continued to take private instrument lessons (likely two years.) Thinking back, I think it was good (“fit”?) for him to attend a school that is rumored to have more art/music/theater scenes. (It seems the gay/lesbian scene is more common/accepted at his school as well.)</p>
<p>I also have noticed the very strong similarity between stmarys, and dm2017.</p>
<p>@mcat2
Perkins is sort of an opt-in program that provides federal backing for money that the college itself lends out. So it is similar to work-study in that colleges have discretion as to whether to offer those funds and how to use them. </p>
<p>See: <a href=“http://www2.ed.gov/programs/fpl/index.html”>http://www2.ed.gov/programs/fpl/index.html</a>
<a href=“https://studentaid.ed.gov/types/loans/perkins”>https://studentaid.ed.gov/types/loans/perkins</a></p>
<p>As a grad student, your son is better off to take the Perkins loan over the PLUS or graduate Stafford (Direct Loan), because of the better interest rate.</p>
<p>As an undergrad, the student would also be better off to take the Perkins when offered-- again due to lower interest rate – but the problem is that schools which offer the Perkins generally offer it on top of the full Subsidized Stafford – and students typically take all loan funds offered – so usually the student who takes the Perkins loans is left with more debt. So at the undergrad level, you will see Perkins loans more commonly offered by public universities and somewhat lower ranked privates, as typically the overall financial aid award is weaker.</p>
<p>In other words, I look at a loan as an obligation that actually increases the overall costs to the student, because the student must pay the loan as well as loan fees and interest. </p>
<p>But for someone without other sources of funds, of course the loans can enable the student to attend a college they could not otherwise afford. </p>
<p>So going back to my example with my son – the west coast college which offered the Perkins loan seemed generous when we looked at our short-term out-of-pocket cost --it would have resulted in my writing a smaller check to the college than I would have for the in-state flagship U. But the grant offered by the east coast college was far more generous, so it was clearly the best offer we had at the time for financial aid, especially attractive because of the extra merit award tacked on.</p>
<p>@stmarys14 wrote:
</p>
<p>My daughter’s college degree has the words “Columbia University” printed at the top; my son has a degree from a Cal State.</p>
<p>My son was a National Merit finalist; my daughters’ test scores put her in the bottom 25% of her entering class.</p>
<p>My son graduated with a 3.5 GPA; my daughter graduated with a GPA above 3.9, summa cum laude + phi beta kappa.</p>
<p>Both my kids were poli sci majors and got jobs related to their area of study immediately after college graduation. The pay for their respective jobs was roughly similar. </p>
<p>When my son took the GRE, he got a perfect score on the math section. He spent hours tutoring my daughter, but her GRE scores were still significantly lower than hers. </p>
<p>My daughter’s college courses were more demanding than my son’s. More reading, more homework, more extensive distribution requirements, higher expectations for writing. My son’s college offered him a funded internship opportunity that was simply far more impressive and impactful on his life than anything my daughter was offered at her college. </p>
<p>Many of my daughter’s classes were large lectures and she often worked with TA’s who were responsible for recitations and grading papers. I don’t believe that my son ever took an undergraduate course with more than 50 students; and he never had TA;s as an undergrad. </p>
<p>My daughter graduated with $18K of debt, and is still making loan payments, 4 years out. My son had very little debt -, which was paid off in full within 2 months of his graduation.</p>
<p>Both my son and daughter went on to grad school programs leading to similar degrees- public for my son, private for my daughter.</p>
<p>I could go on. I think I can safely say, in hindsight, that my daughter’s college was significantly stronger academically, but my son’s college probably afforded him better networking opportunities related to his major and likely career. Partly this was because my son’s professors were more likely to be people hired for their real world career experience (such as having held public office), whereas my daughter’s professors were more likely to be hired for their academic credentials. As neither of my offspring aspires to career in academia, those real-world contacts probably carry a little more weight. On the other hand, I think that my daughter would have a leg up if she wanted to enter a PhD program… but she doesn’t. </p>
<p>The point is – it’s not a simple equation or an either-or decision. I do think that my daughter’s college was worth paying more, in the same way that I would expect to pay more to buy a BMW than a Toyota. But but my son’s CSU was probably a better value – that is, when considering all factors, he ended up getting more bang for his buck. </p>
<p>But once the kids were out of school, other things came into play as well. There is a lot of stuff that happens after colleges that also influences careers, connections - much of which is happenstance. </p>
<p>Very good points, calmom. There is so much fear among some of the young people (and occasionally their parents) who visit this site. I don’t understand why they can’t read posts like yours objectively. Most of us with actual life experience have stories similar to yours, with our own kids or friends, coworkers, etc. It’s not hard at all to see that there are many different paths to success.</p>
<p>@catmom,
Thanks for the explanation on Perkins and graduate Stafford (Direct Loan).</p>
<p>Somehow my wife just told me that DS actually has had both loans every year since his first year of graduate school (not a PhD program, so $$$.) I stopped paying attention to the details of DS’s school account after his UG, and she kind of “took over” this kind of financial aids affairs from me, so she now knows more about it than me.</p>
<p>However, DS still thinks I am still the one “in charge of this” even today (which is not true.) A few weeks ago, the school wanted him/us to decide whether we want to pay 1/2 of tuitions for his fourth year and the other 1/2 for his fifth year. (One of his years is tuition free if he chooses to do it in 5 years instead of 4 years.) When he called us, my wife answered the phone. I heard he said “get Dad here!” I feel I am still “valued” by him at that moment. (I thought he does not need me any more, after I have helped him with some STEM related subjects during his middle or high school, and have paid his UG tuitions.)</p>
<p>“If your kids were at Ivies none of you would waste a second of your life defending lesser schools.”</p>
<p>I don’t spend any time justifying my children’s college choices. We’re very happy with them.</p>
<p>@mcat2 - I think it is wonderful that your son values your opinion! My son calls me all the time with those sorts of questions – and once a kid is grown and paying their own way, there really isn’t a right answer. So I try to ask the sort of questions that will help my kid through the process, rather than saying which I think is best – at least, unless I see the kid making an obvious error in math – easy to get misled when it comes to loans. </p>
<p>@pizzagirl how much of a cost difference was it? A few thousand or a few hundred? </p>
<p>For example, the difference between a mid-tier university that’s well known across the state but unknown outside of the state and is an academic safety for a majority of the kids in my classes as well as my self versus the state flagship (known on CC as a “public ivy”) is only about 400$. </p>
<p>This example also kind of pulls from my original question. With such a low difference, would considering “intellectual thickness” and prestige be as bad? Unlike comparing the top 60 state flagship and the in-state private top 20 school. where the difference is more than 3x as much.</p>
<p>I see an error in how I stated my words. By justify I mean more like what things were taken into consideration when choosing between a more costly school versus a cheaper school. This could be Harvard vs “directional” or Yale vs Princeton or USC vs Berkley</p>
<p>@GoldenState, I can tell you that my D1 is definitely leaning towards a small LAC rather than one of the UCs which would be much cheaper for us as CA residents. Things that we as her parents are taking into account include: </p>
<ol>
<li><p>Whether she’ll be happier at a small school. Totally aside from the fact that of course we always want her to be happy, this is not a trivial matter, since kids who are happy at school tend to get better grades and are more likely to graduate in 4 years (or at all – miserable students are more likely to drop out completely). This is basically the same thing as “fit” and also includes the attractiveness of the campus, whether she feels more at home with the student body, even how nice the dorms are.</p></li>
<li><p>Whether a small private school will offer more personalized attention, including academic counseling and more of a chance to get to know the professors. This is important not only because it enhances the educational experience but because it may make a difference in recommendations for grad school, if she decides to go.</p></li>
<li><p>Name recognition is not at the top of our list, but it is a factor. Ironically, in CA the UCs probably have better name recognition than most of the LACs. The average potential employer knows exactly what kind of school UC Santa Cruz is, whereas they might never have heard of, say, Middlebury, and would not know whether that was a community college or what. Again, not a deciding factor, but something to weigh in the balance.</p></li>
<li><p>Opportunities for taking different classes and being involved in different activities. Some small LACs have very limited course offerings, and there will be a lot more student clubs and non-academic classes at a big university.</p></li>
<li><p>Distance. This might sound silly, but the annual cost of a school can get bumped up a bit when you start factoring in the cost of airfare for every student visit home and every parental visit to the campus. If you’re talking about a difference in cost between two schools of just a few thousand dollars, that could wipe out that difference right there.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>I’m sure there are other factors I’m not thinking about, but many of them can be included under the “happiness/fit” factor.</p>
<p>@GoldenState2015 - I think that most of us are discussion cost differentials that are large enough to make a significant dent on our budgets (at least those of us who aren’t rich) – so it would be likely measured in the thousands per year, rather than hundreds. But it really does depend on parents’ income level & individual financial concerns- for one family an extra $5000 might seem like a drop in the bucket, for another even $1000 more can be a deal breaker.</p>
<p>Also, I think that every cost-conscious family probably has an upper limit in mind - what they perceive to be a maximum they are willing or able to pay. So the equation might differ depending on where the differential falls.</p>
<p>Let’s say for example that number is $25K a year. The kid gets financial aid at all schools – and in the spring the choices are: $0 (full ride scholarship); $10K, $20K, $24K, $27K, $40K. Let’s assume also that the 0 cost school is lower ranked and one the student has little interest attending – as an NMF my son had several offers along those lines. We’ll also assume that that the student’s order of preference, and the scale of prestige/ranking mirrors the price differential – because obviously if the student actually prefers a less expensive school, it’s a easy decision.</p>
<p>You can see by my example that if the parent is mentally drawing the line at $25K, then the the parent should be willing to pay $24K even though there are several much less expensive options. Similarly, given the budget, it should be easy to reject the $40K option from the start, as it is clearly well outside the budget. </p>
<p>But what about that $27K school? It is above the budget, but only by a slight margin – the family that can afford to pay $25K can probably stretch to come up with $2K more. On the other hand, there are several less costly options to look at – and the family also may need to factor in anticipated rises in costs for tuition and living expenses over the ensuing 4 years. But I think this is where the real cost-benefit analysis starts to come in. It’s going to start to make a pretty big difference what those schools are and what they offer – not just in terms of overall rankings, but looking at factors specific to the student. </p>