<p>USA citizens get free college education? I wish!</p>
<p>Both the delay and the uncertainty serve to minimize the incentivizing power of the DREAM act.</p>
<p>Also, for us it seems ridiculously easy to stay out of trouble, graduate from high school, and spend two years in college. In many cases, we’re talking about kids who travel with their migrant-worker families, hop from school to school, live in communities where being fluent in English or finishing high school are oddities…it’s not nearly so easy for them.</p>
<p>“USA citizens get free college education? I wish!”
sorry it’s not “free” for you - you apparently CAN pay (from each according to his ability)
illegals can’t pay so the system justifies their support (to each according to his need)
it’s the change you voted for</p>
<p>So illegal aliens who passed high school but have to take two years of remedial classes due to poor proficiency in the English language are allowed to become naturalized U.S. citizens?</p>
<p>No. Under the proposed language, people brought here as children would have to “complete” two years of work toward a “bachelor’s degree.” There’s no U.S. institution I know of that gives two years of credit toward a bachelor’s for remedial English.</p>
<p>After six years of waiting, they would then be eligible to APPLY for legal permanent residence (it wouldn’t be guaranteed), and if they succeeded, then down the road they could APPLY for citizenship…none of these steps would happen automatically.</p>
That’s very ambiguous - is that the actual language? I can see how it could be interpreted such that 2 years of remedial courses at a CC could be considered ‘two years’ of ‘work’ toward a bachelors degree. I’d expect to see something more like ‘progress’ but even that would be too vague. I think we have to step back and consider the intent behind the act - isn’t the intent to legalize as many of these kids as possible and therefore doesn’t the language lend itself to that?</p>
<p>
I don’t believe most of the statistics because so many illegals live under the radar, don’t participate in polls, etc. How can they have any reliable stats?</p>
<p>
Same as my response above - how do you know that? I can guarantee that there are many illegals around here who don’t pay any income tax because they operate in a cash-only environment. I have them knock on my door all the time looking for work. I also know there are some illegals who do pay income tax when they’re employed by a company that does witholding. I expect very few voluntarily fill out a tax return and pay a percentage of the cash they earned as income tax. I don’t know the percentages though and I doubt any of these people participated in any kind of study to achieve the stats.</p>
<p>Good to know that remedial English doesn’t go toward fulfilling the requirements for a bachelor’s degree. However, as I understand the text, an associate’s is good enough to meet the requirement.</p>
<p><a href=“D”>quote</a> The alien has completed at least 1 of the following:</p>
<p>(i) The alien has acquired a degree from an institution of higher education in the United States or has completed at least 2 years, in good standing, in a program for a bachelor’s degree or higher degree in the United States.</p>
<p>(ii) The alien has served in the uniformed services for at least 2 years and, if discharged, has received an honorable discharge.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>We must know what an “institution of higher education” is. According to [Section</a> 101](<a href=“http://www2.ed.gov/policy/highered/leg/hea98/sec101.html]Section”>http://www2.ed.gov/policy/highered/leg/hea98/sec101.html) of the Higher Education Act of 1965, “For purposes of this Act, other than title IV, the term `institution of higher education’ means an educational institution in any State that–…provides an educational program for which the institution awards a bachelor’s degree or provides not less than a 2-year program that is acceptable for full credit toward such a degree;”</p>
<p>Completion of the bachelor’s is not necessary to meet the requirement for citizenship under the DREAM Act. The more I read about this act, the bigger of a joke it becomes to me.</p>
<p>“Completion of the bachelor’s is not necessary to meet the requirement for citizenship under the DREAM Act.”</p>
<p>Right, it has to be two years of college, in a real degree-granting program. Are you arguing that there’s an accredited institution in the U.S. giving associates’ degrees in remedial English?</p>
<p>“That’s very ambiguous - is that the actual language?”</p>
<p>Yes. Here’s the complete section:
<a href=“D”>B</a> The alien has completed at least 1 of the following:</p>
<pre><code> (i) The alien has acquired a degree from an institution of higher education in the United States or has completed at least 2 years, in good standing, in a program for a bachelor’s degree or higher degree in the United States.
(ii) The alien has served in the uniformed services for at least 2 years and, if discharged, has received an honorable discharge.**
<p>No, I am not, since I wrote, “Good to know that remedial English doesn’t go toward fulfilling the requirements for a bachelor’s degree,” though it may be needed before the English classes that do go toward degree requirements can be taken. In fact, isn’t it entirely possible that someone may need to take so many remedial classes before core classes in a bachelor’s degree can be taken that a full year or even two will have gone by before the core curriculum can actually be tackled?</p>
<p><a href=“i”>quote</a> The alien has acquired a degree from an institution of higher education in the United States or has completed at least 2 years, in good standing, in a program for a bachelor’s degree or higher degree in the United States.
[/quote]
I wonder what the point is of requiring two years in a program but not requiring the actual completion of the program. It seems that if the decision is made to pursue this avenue (which is debatable) it should require the attainment of a bachelors degree. It doesn’t make any sense to me to consider 2 years adequate since it’s next to worthless when it comes to credentials for employment and can be attained by just taking a couple of years of easy courses. Another point/question - since many states, including California, permit one to attend 2 years at a CC and then transfer to a 4 year college as a junior, i.e. it’s essentially the same as attending the 4 year college for the first 2 years, then I guess just attending a CC for 2 years would be adequate to satisfy the requirement?</p>
<p>“isn’t it entirely possible that someone may need to take so many remedial classes before core classes in a bachelor’s degree can be taken that a full year or even two will have gone by before the core curriculum can actually be tackled?”</p>
<p>Sure, but that wouldn’t satisfy the language of the proposed statute.</p>
<p>"since many states, including California, permit one to attend 2 years at a CC and then transfer to a 4 year college as a junior, i.e. it’s essentially the same as attending the 4 year college for the first 2 years, then I guess just attending a CC for 2 years would be adequate to satisfy the requirement? "</p>
<p>Yes, if you had actually completed half the requirements for a bachelor’s, but the California program expects that you will complete the associate’s degree in those two years. So if you were doing the two years as part of a four-year program, you’d satisfy the requirement of an associate’s degree.</p>
<p>Why not? The language says “The alien has acquired a degree from an institution of higher education in the United States or has completed at least 2 years, in good standing, in a program for a bachelor’s degree or higher degree in the United States.” So let’s say that you’re enrolled in a program for a bachelor’s degree, but your background is so weak that you have to take remedial classes so you can take the core classes that are needed to fulfill the degree requirements. If an illegal alien has taken a ton of remedial classes but at least one core curriculum class in those two years, it seems that he’ll have met the requirements of the proposed statue.</p>
<p>Afaik, no remedial class is actually part of any degree program and therefore should not qualify as part of the two-year requirement. The wording “at least two years” is too broad as it implies calendar years which is misleading…it should read something like “FTE of two years” in order to translate into whatever the college’s credit hour requirements for two full time years of study.</p>
<p>“you have to take remedial classes so you can take the core classes that are needed to fulfill the degree requirements.”</p>
<p>Because you haven’t completed two years in a bachelor’s program. You’ve completed two years in a remedial program and one class of a bachelor’s program. That wouldn’t work.</p>
<p>^^ But who exactly is going to validate it and look at it in enough detail to know? Will it just be a question on a form? Will it be the ‘standing’ (i.e. Junior standing) at the 4 year college or the attainment of an AA degree at a CC and if so, why doesn’t it actually specify that? </p>
<p>Regardless, if one were so inclined, they could take ‘non-remedial’ courses that are very easy GEs that would satisy even the more strict interpretation. Plenty of college students don’t actually pick a major anyway until the junior year. It still makes no sense to me to have 2 years of progress be enough to satisfy the requirement rather than the attainment of the degree. Why even bother with the requirement if it’s going to be something that’ll be of no competetive value in attaining a job? </p>
<p>It comes across to me as just a vehicle to allow more illegals to become legal without going through the path legal immigrants are required to follow.</p>
<p>“who exactly is going to validate it and look at it in enough detail to know?”</p>
<p>The immigration judge, if there’s any dispute. This happens every day in the legal immigration process right now: whatever type of visa you’re applying for, you have to submit certain documentation. It might be a marriage certificate, proof of enrollment at a U.S. school, whatever. There’s usually quite a long wait, because the agency really does look at the documents in detail and verify the information. If the agency is not satisfied, and the applicant doesn’t want to give up, the case goes before an immigration judge. From there, there’s an appeals process to the Board of Immigration Appeals and ultimately to the federal appeals court for that circuit.</p>
<p>This is similar to the kind of administrative hearing process that’s used, for example, if you are not awarded social security benefits that you believe you’re entitled to, or if you think the environmental protection agency has wrongly denied your development plan.</p>