How do kids--who are here illegally--provide docs to colleges?

Parents Forum
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<p>Recent immigrants as in recent illegal immigrants? Say what you mean; don’t conflate recent legal immigrants with recent illegal immigrants, because the two ain’t the same thing.</p>

<p>Would you agree that some fifteen years ago, Balderas’s family was also “concerned about immediate survival”? Ditto with Colotl’s family? What you say about their not being “focused on what might happen ten years down the road” may be true for now, but if passed, the DREAM Act would mean that the “future” is not the same as “now.” The system would have changed, and so what is true now is not guaranteed to be true in a changed scenario.</p>

<p>Fundamental principle of economics: people respond to incentives. We ignore or downplay that at our own peril.</p>

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<p>The USA article above says the Tran scholarship was named for a student who transferred to Brown.Actually, Tran graduated from UCLA and was in a graduate program at Brown. </p>

<p>Tran’s case shows how ridiculous the law can be when applied to individual cases. Tran was Vietnamese. Her father was on the US “side” and fled when the US withdrew. In sheer desperation, her parents fled in a very small boat. Adrift at sea, the passengers were rescued by the German navy. They were taken to Germany. </p>

<p>Tran and her brother were born in Germany. The family was not integrated into German society in any way. Her father was not permitted to work. </p>

<p>An aunt had come to the US. The Tran family were allowed to visit on a tourist visa. Her parents applied for political asylum. They were denied it, presumably because they were not coming directly from Vietnam. The court ruled they had to be deported to Germany. Tran was very young when her family came to the US, and it was years before the decision denying them political asylum was made. </p>

<p>Germany refused to admit them. Being born in Germany does not make you a German citizen. Being picked up adrift in the ocean doesn’t make you a German citizen. </p>

<p>So, the family was allowed to stay in the US. The court had to recognize that if they returned to Vietnam, the father would be executed. The family could not be deported to Germany because German authorities wouldn’t admit them. So, the family stayed–but they had no legal status. Her parents could not work. The kids could not get federal financial aid. When the kids grew older, they could not work either. </p>

<p>Now, you can say Trans’ parents were responsible because they left Germany of their own volition. But it’s rather silly to blame this decision on Tran and her brother, who were young children. And it’s easy to understand the family’s viewpoint. The aunt who came to the US from Vietnam had been able to build a new life, including working for a living, which the Trans could not do in Germany. No mattter how many generations the Trans family stayed in Germany, no members of their family could ever become German citizens. </p>

<p>Tran became a grad student in part because it was the only thing she could do. As a stateless person, she could not get a job legally. </p>

<p>She was killed in a car crash recently. She had been an activist trying to get the DREAM Act passed. </p>

<p>I think it would make the DREAM Act more likely to pass if those who qualify pursuant to it were barred from applying to regularize the status of those who brought them here illegally. (I’m not sure if that would be possible under the current version.) Quite seriously, one heck of a lot of NYC kids find out they are illegal when it comes time to apply to college. To avoid having them get the family in trouble with Homeland Security, the kids who come here as infants and toddlers are told that they were born in New York. They fill out school forms that way, believing that they were. </p>

<p>Very few of these kids can read and write their parents’ languages. I doubt the young man who is studying at Harvard could read a chemistry textbook in Spanish. It is entirely unrealistic to say that he can return to Meixco and go to university there. </p>

<p>Note that the deferral Homeland Security gave him does NOT give him a green card. It only allows him to stay here to study–as Tran was able to study.</p>

<p>I agree that we need to enforce our boarders. I know how ridiculouly easy it is to live in NYC illegally and work–or at least it was until the economy turned sour. </p>

<p>But kids who come here as infants and toddlers and live their whole lives here should get some form of amnesty, IMO. The young man studying at Harvard came here at the age of 4. To punish him for coming to the US illegally seems unfair.</p>

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<p>“Say what you mean; don’t conflate recent legal immigrants with recent illegal immigrants, because the two ain’t the same thing.”</p>

<p>I’ve worked with those whose status was yet to be determined. Generally, that’s who detainees are. However, in my post I referred to those “sneaking” across the border, most of whom would eventually be judged illegal if they were caught.</p>

<p>People only respond to incentives that matter to them. A $1000 incentive would strongly motivate me to get my census form in on time; it probably wouldn’t do a thing to motivate Bill Gates. The people who would even consider sneaking across the border with small children in tow are focused on their immediate survival and the needs of their kids right then. The best case scenario for those border crossers is years of hard labor for low wages in an underground economy with a constant fear of discovery, deportation, and family separation. It’s a choice that is only made out of desperation in the here and now. A non-guaranteed benefit that their kids MIGHT receive 10-15 years down the road, IF the law doesn’t change and IF their kid manages to graduate from high school and then get through two years of college or military service, is not going to change many minds. Either you’re desperate enough to put your family through that wringer, or you aren’t.</p>

<p>If you want to talk economics, any economist (or psychologist) will tell you that a supposed incentive that isn’t guaranteed, and that won’t mature for 10+ years, and that requires a ton of effort from third parties before it matures, isn’t going to work as an incentive.</p>

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<p>I disagree. Illegal immigrants crossing the border today are aware that any children they bear will be US citizens and these children can sponsor their parents for citizenship. If they can hope or know that older children can also become citizens after attending school for a few years, they’ll be much more likely to come, and bring those older children with them, rather than leaving them behind with a relative.</p>

<p>A story in my local paper here a year or so ago profiled two brothers. One was already here. The next one came, paying lots of $$$ to coyotes, and arrived in a truck just a few blocks from where I live. He walked to his brother’s house and enrolled in public school the next day. </p>

<p>I think the crossing may be quite hazardous, but once people arrive here, in a community where they know someone, it’s not such a “wringer” anymore and there are a lot of expectations for happiness, success and acceptance.</p>

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<p>jonri,</p>

<p>No doubt that Tran’s life story deserves our empathy. I am not questioning that. I am simply arguing that Tran is not alone in having a compelling life story. As I wrote, “[w]e’ll never be able to stop illegal immigration if every kid’s sob story becomes the fault of “society” as opposed to the kids’ parents, and really, just about every illegal minor has a sob story.” Make an exception for people like Tran, and you’re making an exception for almost every illegal minor in the country.</p>

<p>Again, I would support a modified DREAM Act where the path to citizenship requires six years of military service in a branch and deployment not of the illegal alien’s choosing. The [url=<a href=“http://www.dreamactivist.org/text-of-dream-act-legislation/general-faq/]current[/url”>http://www.dreamactivist.org/text-of-dream-act-legislation/general-faq/]current[/url</a>] DREAM Act is just a joke to me; people who violated immigration law can become citizens just for completing two years of college?</p>

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<p>2 years college ed = legal status for those who weren’t invited here? sounds cheap to me. induct the guy and his like into the army, equip with a gun and uniform and send them to afghanistan for 2 years. a lot of legal americans have died to protect this country - illegal immigrants may as well get some skin in the game, too. otherwise they have no real allegiance to the usa. as long as they’re just here for the money, it’s a quick trip to go home. and this ain’t it, make no mistake.</p>

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<p>“Illegal immigrants crossing the border today are aware that any children they bear will be US citizens and these children can sponsor their parents for citizenship.”</p>

<p>Yeah, because that citizenship is guaranteed, instant, and automatic, and the law can’t be changed except by constitutional amendment. From an incentive point of view, that’s totally different from a DREAM act far-off possibility that might not still be law 12 years from now even if your child does everything right for 12 years.</p>

<p>$1000 today is a much, much stronger incentive than $10,000 awarded in 10 years.</p>

<p>“military service in a branch and deployment not of the illegal alien’s choosing”</p>

<p>I don’t know why this is such a focus for you. What do you think the professionals in the military would think about that? If you were storming a house in Fallujah with a group of Marines, would you rather have your back covered by brother Marines who wanted to be Marines, or by people who had no choice and would give anything for a desk job? You don’t get the best work out of people by ignoring the kind of work they like to do.</p>

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<p>Depends on your personal desired rate of return. I’d take the $10,000 a decade from now unless I thought I could earn a continuously compounded return over the next ten years that was greater than 23.03% with the $1,000 today, which I don’t because I’m not Warren Buffett. But I digress.</p>

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<p>That’s a good point. I accept your rebuttal. Six years, any branch of the illegal alien’s choosing.</p>

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<p>"You don’t get the best work out of people by ignoring the kind of work they like to do. "
boy what a deal these folks in the DREAM program are gonna get from us! and what kind of work is it exactly that illegal immigrants would like for us to provide for them to do while they’re “earning” their citizenship - college education?</p>

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<p>It’s not about what type of work they would like to be provided with, it’s a matter of what type of work we’re willing to offer and they’re suited for. Just as every American is not cut out for military service, neither is every immigrant - legal or otherwise. The military is not a babysitting service for those who are not willing and fit for duty…nor should it ever be, for the safety and sanity of their fellow servicemen/women! Yes, we can use more college educated scientists, researchers, teachers, nurses, etc…so education is a viable alternative if they can be gainfully employed after graduation. Remember, they are not eligible for federal aid for college and, in most states, will not be eligible to receive instate rates either. It is not an easy path.</p>

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<p>Fine. We offer the six years of military service path to citizenship. They can choose which branch and even which field within the branch, which to my knowledge enlisted soldiers can do. If they’re not willing or able to do the six years of service, then tough luck–leave the country and come back in ten years to do the process legally. </p>

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<p>Yes, we can use more “college educated scientists, researchers, teachers, nurses, etc…” How about we encourage those newly naturalized Americans who successfully completed the six years of service to attend college and become “scientists, researchers, teachers, nurses”? In my opinion, and I acknowledge I may be speaking only for a minority of people at best, the DREAM Act will never pass so long as illegal aliens can become U.S. citizens merely for completing two years of college. A community college like [San</a> Antonio College](<a href=“College Search - BigFuture | College Board”>College Search - BigFuture | College Board) costs $6,232 a year in tuition and fees for non-Texas residents. If an illegal alien managed to evade authorities to reach college age, surely he’s able to find employment or financiers of a political persuasion different than mine to cover the costs.</p>

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<p>“Depends on your personal desired rate of return.”</p>

<p>Empirically, the vast majority of humans will take a guaranteed dollar today over a chance at ten bucks next month. The poorer the human, the more likely this is to be true. If you’re designing a national policy like the DREAM act, this empirical truth can help you predict how it will influence behavior. Uncertain benefits that won’t accrue for years just don’t work well as incentives.</p>

<p>You can see this principle at work all around you every single day. If people would put down the cigarette or the donut today, they’d likely reap huge benefits later on. But they can’t be sure about that – nonsmokers get cancer too – and anyway that’s far off in the future, so they keep smoking and eating donuts because it feels better today. The only way to change most people’s choices is to offer an immediate, guaranteed benefit.</p>

<p>The DREAM act, as currently designed, just doesn’t offer the kind of goodies that are likely to motivate large numbers of humans to change their current behavior.</p>

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<p>“Yes, we can use more college educated scientists, researchers, teachers, nurses, etc…so education is a viable alternative if they can be gainfully employed after graduation.”
then i guess we all should be saying “thanks ever so” to all these illegal folks, stepping up to the plate, “taking jobs that Americans don’t want to do”! let’s see, that would mean our newly minted messican-american citizens will become “college educated scientists, researchers, teachers, nurses, etc.” so our kids can move on to do…what? pick lettuce?</p>

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<p>I think that is debatable. While I don’t have empirical evidence of this, it is likely that illegal immigrant males come to the U.S. for jobs, but illegal immigrant females come for free health care and education for their children. </p>

<p>They already know their children will receive K-12 at no cost, and maybe this is enough, but add a free college education and citizenship to the package and I have to believe it becomes even more attractive.</p>

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<p>In what way does the DREAM Act propose free college education to children of illegal immigrants?</p>

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<p>Oh I thought your previous example was $1,000 today versus $10,000 in 10 years, where the latter amount was guaranteed and not up to chance: “$1000 today is a much, much stronger incentive than $10,000 awarded in 10 years.” If you meant for the $10,000 to be a mere possibility, then yeah, I’d take the $1,000 today. If, however, it was guaranteed provided that I waited the decade, then I’d take the $10,000 since I don’t believe I can earn greater than a continuously compounded rate of 23.03% over the next ten years with the $1,000 today.</p>

<p>You are nevertheless right that the DREAM Act as currently written doesn’t guarantee citizenship; it merely makes it ridiculously easy to achieve.</p>

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<p>To my knowledge, it doesn’t. But as it’s currently written, it doesn’t even require that the illegal alien graduate from a two- or four-year college. It merely asks for “good” academic standing for two years. What a joke! Maintain a 2.0 for two years and you’ll become a U.S. Citizen even though you didn’t even start the naturalization process lawfully?</p>

<p>If the DREAM Act is to pass, IMO, it has to become more stringent.</p>

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<p>The California version of the DREAM Act provides FA at all public colleges and universities for illegal immigrants: [California</a> Dream Act Clears Senate, Headed To Assembly - San Diego News Story - KGTV San Diego](<a href=“http://www.10news.com/news/23800044/detail.html]California”>http://www.10news.com/news/23800044/detail.html)</p>

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<p>(I have imm. lawyers in my family, as well as a personal interest perhaps as a career.)</p>

<p>It’s not a commonly known fact and it honestly varied by state but a decade and some ago it was rather easy to receive a SSN. Twenty years ago one could ask for one to open a bank account or pay taxes (even with a B1/B2 visa) and at times even to enroll in public school. Most of these numbers/cards had a “no-work unless authorized with an employement authorization card” stamp/disclaimer but employers (then and now) hardly bat an eye so long as it is a legitimate number.</p>

<p>It was extremely easy to receive a license with this SSN number and other benefits even when the B1/B2 (or whichever visa the immigrant came with) expired. Some families (some of them former HS classmates of mine) received SSNs a decade ago for themselves and their toddlers and still use them to this date. Since the numbers don’t expire (until that person “expires”) some currently undocumented aliens, who became undocumented due to their overextended stay, have legitimate numbers. While nowadays this does not entitle them to the benefits of decades ago (as far as receiving a license, etc) it is easier for them to work and find employement (as stated above most employers just care that it is a legitimate number).</p>

<p>This isn’t to say that fraud doesn’t occur, but one must not necessarily assume about the situation, such as the student at Harvard. Also, though there isn’t a distinction as far as legal definitions are concerned (becoming undocumented because of overstay = illegal/entering by crossing the border= illegal), sometimes the situation is easier for undocumented/illegal aliens who entered the country and were inspected (legally/with a visa). For ex. if there is pathway (petitioned by family members, etc.) for them to become legal there is no ban imposed on them, there are fees and penalties to be paid but they do not need to leave the country to gain papers–though easily criticizable, it’s actually really tough for some of these cases to become valid claims towards lawful residency or citizenship, etc.</p>

<p>Also, most college apps do not require you to fill out your SSN. On a similar note, but not relevant to the student from Harvard, if you are a US Citizen by birth and your parents are undocumented you type in 000-00-0000 for their SSN. Some of these students fill out their FAFSA with a ITIN (taxpayer ID number) which is formatted just like an SSN. (<em>I’m not saying this is an acceptable practice, as non-resident alliens/undocumented alliens are not eligible to receive gov’t fin. aid</em>)</p>

<p>On that note you are NOT required to fill out the FAFSA and (from a few cases I personally know of at an Ivy and a LAC) certain schools will let you fill out the CSS (using an ITIN) and simply use that as an indicator of your EFC and create a package with private funds. In these cases the students had to submit copies of tax returns, fillings, etc. from their parents.</p>

<p>As most undocumented aliens actually pay taxes with an (previously stated before) ITIN, it’s not difficult to prove income, etc.</p>

<p>Disclaimer: The comments above aren’t claiming whether or not I think it is okay/legal/permisible to do any of these things. However, I meant it as a means to explains ways I had personally seen aquaintances attend Ivies on full-need scholarships and how their families dealt with being undocumented. Nothing was meant as a political charge/opinion. :)</p>

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<p>“In what way does the DREAM Act propose free college education to children of illegal immigrants?”</p>

<p>if it’s available to usa citizens, illegals will get it too - given recent history with this group</p>