How do T14 law schools view applications from public, state universities?

Graduate School Law School
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<p>Kaitlyn, it doesn’t matter what those local law schools are, is what I was trying to tell you. If you are going to practice in that area, and you have a niche or direction that you will pursue, if there is work out there for that type of law, graduating at the top of the class at Local Law will put you in position for such jobs. The rest is an individual thing that goes for getting any job. If you walk into a criminal law practice and don’t look like you have the stuff, you aren’t going to get hired. That’s with any job. </p>

<p>If I were 20 years younger, i would probably go back and get a law degree, because I know certain fields well, and am confident I can do well in them. I can and do get work in the already, and would just extend the work into the legal area. And I would go to the cheapest easiest law school I could find that would be the most convenient. For my particular area, being a Yale grad isn’t what’s going to get me the job. '</p>

<p>What everyone is telling you is to be aware of what the market is for attorneys. It’s not like getting a STEM degree or getting an MD or a CPA designation or even a community college certificate in some niche field that where there are more jobs than qualified people for them. There are more lawyers out there than there are jobs for them. There are more actors out there, for instance, than there are good paying jobs and roles for them. There are more writers out there than there are journalism or editorial positions. I can go down the list of where there are more candidates than there are positions. And attorneys are right up there. </p>

<p>Heck, I have a kid who wanted to go into the performing arts. And he did. Finding a job that he wants within that field has been challeging and fleeting for him. Too many like him out there. A dime a dozen. But there are some jobs, and there are some getting the juicy jobs. It’s just the odds are not good. YOu do the best you can to up your odds, and see, if that is really what you want to do. </p>

<p>I don’t know for sure, but there was a time when a law degree from Yale pretty much assured a person a nice paying job. When I went to school an MD pretty much guaranteed a very high income and was very much worth the debt and time on paper. Now…not so much. So things change. But law schools are getting scared. It used to be that you never saw scholarships for law school. Now they are giving some out. Maybe they’ll end up like grad school where stipends have to be paid, when too few people apply to them.</p>

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<p>I think you should post them publicly. Its 4 schools that are your options and you’d benefit from more than one person analyzing. There isn’t any information we could glean from the knowledge of the 4 schools.</p>

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<p>I understand, cpt. But I do like knowing that the schools I’m looking into have some successful graduates. The good thing, at least, is that I do understand your niche statement. And around here, if you have a degree from the local university and your professor was so-and-so’s uncle Ted, you will get a job over a Yale grad. But if I’m able to, it’d be nice to have a degree I could use if I choose to move to a new region. Either way, like you said, it’s kind of a gamble. It can be worth it to take the chance or not. Nothing is guaranteed. I’m working on it.</p>

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<p>“There isn’t any information we could glean from the knowledge of the 4 schools.”</p>

<p>Except the area where I live, which is kind of a problem for me because I don’t having it so that people can pinpoint me in one area. I mean, I could post them, but it would make it extremely obvious as to pretty much the exact place where I live. And while I don’t think any of you have any kind of problematic intentions, I don’t want it to be obvious to anyone that knows me in real life that this is me. I like having some sense of anonymity online. Honestly, I think I should have been more careful with my username and not even used my first name and graduation year.</p>

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<p>Yeah, I often find myself wishing I hadn’t used my own name too, but what’s done is done. Your grad year is part of the discussion though, so no worries about that. :)</p>

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<p>Right. And there’s hundreds (probably thousands) of Kaitlyns graduating in 2014, so I can get over that at least. But if I post the four law schools that surround my little town, then anyone who looks will know where I live. And if I want to remain somewhat anonymous, that’s not going to help matters haha. :)</p>

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<p>Well, go get an LSAT score and come back. Then we can talk about what your options really are.</p>

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<p>I have a score now. Now I’m just going to focus on bringing it up higher. I’ll make more decisions after the June LSAT.</p>

<p>Thanks for the help. I’m going to start focusing on studying now :)</p>

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<p>i didn’t tell you that you shouldn’t be willing to rack up the debt – i cautioned you to realize the issues involved in doing so – BIG difference. from my prior post -“just be sure to educate yourself about the issues.” you had previously said you were credit worthy, and i was simply telling you to be aware of the issues you would need to deal with if incurring large debt. </p>

<p>there are a lot of other issues that i think a prospective law student should consider – which doesn’t mean i think that they have to reach any given conclusion about those issues.</p>

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<p>Yeah. I made a conclusion based on what you said. You didn’t actually say not to go into debt.</p>

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<p>You need to talk to the career office at the local law schools and find out how well the top 10% of the graduates do. The other 90% are not going to fare well unless they are directed, hungry, have great personal skills, can talk a good talk as well know the law, or have connections. And those folks are going to find jobs and do just fine whether they go to law school or not. </p>

<p>I agree that you should know what your odds are in getting into all of this. Also, you might want to take a good hard look at yourself and maybe get some sort of appraisal as to how you would do in terms of an attorney in the fields you are considering. Those who are telling you that you will be limited with a degree from a law degree that is not top 14 are correct if the type of jobs you are looking for at the ones that focus on those schools. Portability is also an issue when you are not from a top firm. But if you are looking to practice locally to a bunch of law schools, that is a whole other story.</p>

<p>Frankly, I would not make the investment unless I were top 14 material, or had a burning desire to be an attorney or had a niche market in mind. it used to be something people would do just to open up some work options without being so definite about the professions, but the costs of going now and the scarcity of good paying jobs in the field have made that a bad move. Most 20-21 year olds who have not always wanted to be an attorney don’t know if they are the “lawyer type”. If being an attorney was always of high interest, and you really want to be a lawyer, spending some time interning in a law firm might be a good idea before making such a commitment. My niece decided law school was not for her, nor was becoming an attorney after working a summer at her father’s firm. Too bad, as her father would have handed the reins over to her if she wanted it. But she does not,</p>

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<p>Kaitlyn, </p>

<p>If you would like, you may PM me the schools. I am I New England, went to school down South, and lived out in California, so I might be able to help.</p>

<p>The advice I always give juniors and seniors is to ignore the pressure to figure out what you are doing for your life. That does not need to be figured out now. Easier said than done, but get used to saying that you are exploring options and want to be very careful before signing onto law school. </p>

<p>I’m fourth-generation college, but first to law school. Well, some extended family are lawyers. So it was a bit different. It was also pre-2008, when the worst case scenario for someone going to a top ranked school would be that she would have to work as a lawyer for a few years to pay down the debt. Now, the worst case scenario is that you cannot get the lawyer job that you need to pay the loans, and the second worst case scenario is that you are doing a job you hate for a few decades. </p>

<p>Even today, I hear a lot of people who are not familiar with the legal profession say things like, “My daughter is about to graduate from [third tier law school]. She’s going to be rich… No, she doesn’t have a job lined up, but she’s a smart kid. She will find one, and then she can support me.” Some of this discussion might be helpful to you as you talk to your family, who may believe the rosy picture, or who may not understand how seriously you should take this decision. </p>

<p>Take the LSAT. If you like your score, apply to law schools. If you get some great acceptance letters, and some scholarships, then come back in and we can all boss you around, whoops, I mean, provide advice. But what I have been trying to badly communicate is that the best decision for you might be to throw those acceptances in the trash and do something different with your life. Some people would prefer to make that choice with acceptances in hand; others would not be able to walk away. </p>

<p>Incidentally, have you considered night school? (Do they offer scholarships for nights school??)</p>

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<p>"You need to talk to the career office at the local law schools and find out how well the top 10% of the graduates do. The other 90% are not going to fare well unless they are directed, hungry, have great personal skills, can talk a good talk as well know the law, or have connections. And those folks are going to find jobs and do just fine whether they go to law school or not. "</p>

<p>I figure that’s a good idea. I’m planning on visiting the four I’m interested in that aren’t t14 this summer and talking to admissions and students in each. I know that I’m not special and probably won’t continue to be able to perform so wonderfully in law school, but I’ve always made the top 10 of my class in high school and college, and I know my ability to work hard. I would hope that counts for something.</p>

<p>“I agree that you should know what your odds are in getting into all of this. Also, you might want to take a good hard look at yourself and maybe get some sort of appraisal as to how you would do in terms of an attorney in the fields you are considering. Those who are telling you that you will be limited with a degree from a law degree that is not top 14 are correct if the type of jobs you are looking for at the ones that focus on those schools. Portability is also an issue when you are not from a top firm. But if you are looking to practice locally to a bunch of law schools, that is a whole other story.”</p>

<p>Right. And, in all honesty, big law sounds interesting and great, but I’d really just like to be a local family and juvenile attorney or maybe work for the municipal court. I’ve had these interests for years. I got them when I was 8 years old and spent my summer mornings watching Court TV with my grandpa. After that, I developed an actual interest in the area and really fell in love. I’ve done projects on career outlooks for specifically the role of a municipal court judge, and I actually have a judge as a professor right now. His career sounds exactly like what I’d hope to have one day, a judge in a small town. If not that, a lawyer for a small town would be nice too.</p>

<p>“Frankly, I would not make the investment unless I were top 14 material, or had a burning desire to be an attorney or had a niche market in mind. it used to be something people would do just to open up some work options without being so definite about the professions, but the costs of going now and the scarcity of good paying jobs in the field have made that a bad move. Most 20-21 year olds who have not always wanted to be an attorney don’t know if they are the “lawyer type”. If being an attorney was always of high interest, and you really want to be a lawyer, spending some time interning in a law firm might be a good idea before making such a commitment. My niece decided law school was not for her, nor was becoming an attorney after working a summer at her father’s firm. Too bad, as her father would have handed the reins over to her if she wanted it. But she does not,”</p>

<p>Given the amount of time I’ve invested in looking into these careers and the amount of time I’ve spent interviewing people in the field and asking questions, I think this is for sure what I want. That being said, I’m going to look into seeing if I can’t do something at a local law firm this summer, like being a volunteer paper copier in order to look at the actual job. I don’t know if I’m t14 material. My practice LSAT was by no means excellent. However, I was in a chaotic environment. I was unable to focus because of the tv, children, and animals surrounding me. I had never studied. I knew not at all what to expect. People kept asking me questions and I had to keep changing my alarm clock, and, ultimately, I’m surprised I got the score I did. I will be taking another one in the future just to see. At this rate, though, I think I’m going to postpone the LSAT til October. I’ll then make a decision based on my scores and apply to schools that will either a) give me good scholarship money or b) will be worthy of going into debt for based on that score.</p>

<p>Thank you. :)</p>

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<p>"But what I have been trying to badly communicate is that the best decision for you might be to throw those acceptances in the trash and do something different with your life. Some people would prefer to make that choice with acceptances in hand; others would not be able to walk away. </p>

<p>Incidentally, have you considered night school? (Do they offer scholarships for nights school??)"</p>

<p>See, if this was the scenario: I got a mediocre LSAT, got accepted to 3rd tier schools, was expected to pay for every dime out of pocket without any scholarships, I would opt out immediately. I’d cut my losses and either get a masters degree, apply to be a Homeland Security secretary and start that process, or even become a law enforcement officer. If the scenario was: I got a good LSAT score. Not good enough to be the BEST at a t14, but good enough to be accepted. I applied to T14 and got accepted with no scholarships but got accepted to 4 local 2nd and 3rd tiers with full rides or something close, I’d absolutely take it. If the scenario was: I got an AMAZING LSAT, got accepted to a great college, and got offered like half my aid or more, I’d go there. It really depends on that score. Right now, I don’t have any idea what my score will be like come my test date…</p>

<p>As for night school, YES, I have considered it. One of the schools around here offers it and the tuition’s cheaper. They also offer scholarships for it. I seriously am considering that option while working at least part time in a criminology field to pay off the bill as it comes. </p>

<p>Thank you.</p>

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<p>The other person in all this is your fianc</p>

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<p>“If you really want to be a small town lawyer, go for free to a good school in that area, maybe at night, perhaps while working in a firm or with the state. Keep your debt low is that you can take a $30k starting salary.”</p>

<p>That’s what I’m figuring might be a good option. Unless I manage to magically achieve a score and get into the top schools with a great scholarship plan, I’m probably going to just try and aim for getting paid tuition at a local school. As for my fiance, he’s daring and adventurous, and is more than excited to try living anywhere. That being said, I know he loves his family, and I’m aiming at the local four schools so that I can get a good education while not making him sacrifice his family ties.</p>

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<p>K: probably of marginal help, based on where this thread has gone but

  1. T-14s won’t look down on state public Univ applications
  2. That said, need to get a good LSAT to get in, so study hard and
  3. The other advice is worth considering-law school is expensive and the market is saturated. So…just focus on the LSAT for now; once you get the score, you can make a much more informed decision about applying/attending.</p>
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<p>I’m at HYS and I went to a UC that wasn’t Cal/UCLA. I don’t feel like being a state school graduate hurt me at all in the admissions process.</p>

<p>However, many (if not most) of my classmates went to universities that are household names. You’ll obviously have your selection issues where people who score higher on the LSAT come from better schools. </p>

<p>The more important factor is that a prestigious undergraduate institution gives you opportunities to get work experience and become involved in programs that help you stand out. Keep in mind that your journey doesn’t end when you get admitted. You still have to get a job, and employers are a lot more interested in your work experience than most admissions boards.</p>