If you can only imagine one way of doing things then there really is no sense attempting to describe any alternatives.
And many people are like that. This isn’t a bad thing - most of those preset ideas and sound bites aren’t awful. And besides the more people who can only picture one way of doing things means more opportunity for the creative people who can think of good alternatives. I’ve made a lot of money by looking for opportunities that most people miss and hope my boys will do so as well.
( A great example of why I don’t necessarily think we need to change the Ivy Narrative. Let the traditionalists and narrowly focused people all fight it out for those spots.)
The notion of investing in your kids isn’t a sound bite. It is a wholly individual, situational assessment of the parents, the child, and the financial impact on both in deciding what to be involved with. Sports, theater, dance, private school, college…all now generally require an investment. It could be books and travel for an Ivy League education (assuming a scholarship for the rest)…but it’s still an investment. Some kids are worth the investment, others aren’t. If you’re lucky enough to have choices, deciding where to spend the money is investing in your child.
In any event, the “Ivy narrative” has been something that is dynamic and varied as long as “Ivy League” has meant anything at all (a time period that extends back before the athletic conference was formed). We don’t need to change it; it changes all by itself. The number of qualified kids seeking “prestige” national universities has vastly exceeded the number of slots available at the traditional prestige national universities, which have barely expanded their classes since they became co-educational in the early 1970s. That, plus the normal churn of fashion and reputation – Silicon Valley, STEM, and big cities are in, self-contained isolated LACs somewhat out – plus shifting demographics, plus the oversupply of high-quality PhDs, are constantly creating new narratives. If Brand X University is able to attract students and faculty consisting of people who are hard to distinguish from the students and faculty at Ivy University, it will not take long for Brand X University to acquire a similar reputation. Especially when the output of the alumni and the faculty at each university resembles that of the other.
We have seen precisely that happening for, essentially, the past 30 years, with rising numbers of qualified applicants both in the U.S. and abroad, and the remarkable diffusion of high-quality faculty. It’s going to keep happening, no matter what we do or say, and that’s just fine.
There is also the possibility that some might be drawn to the quality of the education, the opportunities, and their general desire for a campus / community aligned with those schools.
I don’t think the narrative has to change, but that doesn’t mean everyone is being foolish or narrow minded who applies.
“I don’t think the narrative has to change, but that doesn’t mean everyone is being foolish or narrow minded who applies.:”
Completely agree. There are obviously very compelling reasons to value and seek those fantastic schools. I should clarify and say that my point relates to people who only look at schools with an Ivy label or assume that all people think, should think or would benefit from the same thing.
I compare CC to the inside the DC Beltway crowd (of which I am one) - out of touch with the real world. Most kids are not obsessed with the Ivy League or even college. Even with all the hype, not even half of adults in America have college degrees. Most of these folk see little benefit in college and do not push their kids to further their education beyond high school. Even in my own family, there are plenty of folk who college was not on their radar during high school and are doing fine.
We get sucked into Chance Me posts, posts about whether or not a $70,000 education or a $10,000 college prep coordinator is worth it. Most folk are just worrying about paying their mortgage and their health care premiums.
@gallentjill Oh I see. Thanks for clarifying. I guess, if it were me, yes, I would make them give up something if their grades were to drop. But that’s because I am sure that, with more time to study, they would get A’s. It’s not ideal and would make them sad, but I don’t want to jeopardize their college chances. I also put everything other than studying in the category of ECs – boyfriends, socializing, job, netflix, social media, malls, clubs, etc. are all EC’s.
I have to confess, when dd2 was in 6th grade, I began to actively but gradually redirect her interest in theater to dance. Those play rehearsals were absolutely brutal and I felt that a lot of that time is just them waiting around for their part to go on. I firmly believe that kids need something other than studying, but theater is just such a time suck … I don’t know what I would do if I were you. Is there something else he could give up?
This thread clearly shows the “Ivy” obsession, lol, down to whose kid got into a tippy top, who’s aiming or not.
And just because you may not know kids gunning for a tippy top doesn’t mean the frenzy doesn’t exist. Where do you think they get those 30-40k apps? You think it’s a lone Val here and there, one from each hs in the country? And it’s not just the northeast, not at all.
Since you are insisting that the concept of “prioritizing investment in one’s child’s education” is a “sound bite”, why are you refusing to give some examples of other more worthy investment opportunities?
“Since you are insisting that the concept of “prioritizing investment in one’s child’s education” is a “sound bite”, why are you refusing to give some examples of other more worthy investment opportunities?”
@bestmom888 Thanks for the reply. My question was really only a hypothetical, although D1 was in a that situation. She loved theater and she was getting a mix of A’s and B’s. You are so incredibly right about theater being a time suck. But on the other hand, it gave her a great sense of composure, presence, self confidence. She moved from being in the plays, to running a student company and writing grant proposals. She also did a lot of other worthwhile, but time consuming activities. In truth, I don’t know if taking away her activities would have improved her grades. It might just have made her depressed and isolated. I know she would not be the happy, outgoing person she grew to be. I also had no idea at that point, what career she might choose. I chose to let her find her own balance and accept the B’s. But that said, I’m sure if her grades deteriorated tremendously, I would have had to act. I would not have let her fail out of school. I honestly don’t know where that line would have been. In the end, it turned out not to matter at all. She chose to attend her “safety” school with a ton of grant money. Its not in any way a prestigious school but its a “good” school for her because it meets all her needs.
Out of curiosity, do you have a definition of what you mean by a good school? I would guess it would have to extend beyond the Ivies. In our town, even our valedictorians with near perfect grades get shut out of them on a regular basis so it would cruel to have a kid aim for that.
There is a vast difference in selectivity and prestige perception within the ivies. Many non ivies are more or equally prestigious than most ivies. Any semi educated “consumer” of higher education would kmow that Stanford, MIT and Uchicago are at the very elite with the top ivies. Cal Tech, Duke, NW and John Hopkins are all top 10/11 schools.
Do you honestly think you are jeopardizing their “college chances” with a B? You’re not. Kids need time to be kids and do what they love. It’s part of developing who THEY are…
Oh, the $250K for your son’s business! We are just going to have to agree to disagree then. As I said, nothing is more worthy to me than investing in my children’s education. This is not a “sound bite”, I live it every day by investing in their sports, dance, summer camps, etc. If this makes me a “narrowly focused person” or someone who “can only imagine one way of doing things”, to quote you, that’s ok. But I want to reiterate, again, that there are many paths to success and that not everyone belongs in college.
A “direction and plan” would be pretty much what it sounds like. There’s a pretty broad range of what would be reasonable. Oldest son had a general idea of what types of majors/fields he’s good at and would be interested in and what sorts of things he wanted to explore more. The American schools he applied to each had approx. 3-5 different majors that were aligned with his interests and also had other alternate programs that appealed as well. He didn’t think the second part was important since he’s so focused but we convinced him it’s great to have options in case you change your mind, discover new things or discover you loathe one of your intended fields once you get deeper into it.
Not every kid is going to be laser focused on exactly what s/he wants to study from birth and that’s OK. My comment on having a direction and a plan was in response to a post where the person mentioned a kid that had “no goals” and that the purpose of college would be to find goals. I would not be comfortable spending the money to send a kid with no goals at all to full pay private college. If one of them wants to go to one of the almost free in-state or gets enough merit money somewhere to be almost free and just take classes until they developed some goals I wouldn’t be able to stop them but it’s probably not something I’d recommend.
@milee30 I’m a firm believer that higher education is a path out of poverty, having seen it first hand in my own life and the lives of those around me. This belief was passed down to me from my parents, and it pervades my culture and my community. Hopefully, I’ve passed this on to my own children. I supposed if either of them resisted strongly the notion of going to college, I would not force it on them – however that scenario is very unlikely. I was trying to find a scenario where I would actively discourage my child from going to college, and I can’t think of one. It happens to be the case that I can afford college, and my kids want to go. Encouraging them to do well so they can go to a good one is a pragmatic approach for my family.
@Chrchill is right with 131, to lump those non-Ivy schools in with the actual Ivies.
This Ivy lust wouldn’t be such an issue if more kids (and their parents) relied on fit to choose schools.
If you include LACs, there are probably some 30-40 Ivies and their equivalents. Not 8, nor 11, but 30-40.
Among those 30-40 schools, many kids could probably apply their fit preferences to choose at least 3-5 schools that would comprise the reach/low reach portion of their app list. This would be better for most kids than arbitrarily picking HYPSM and applying to those five. Or five Ivies. Or all eight.
The more we concentrate on how the school fits the kid, as opposed to the name of the school or the athletic conference it’s in, the more we can chip away at reliance on the hype associated with conferences and school brands in general. We can do that here every time a kid asks for help finding schools, or choosing among acceptances. In so doing, we can help kids go about this application process in a much smarter and beneficial way.
@prezbucky There are not “30-40 Ivies” and we need to STOP using the term Ivy as a synonym for “top college.” That just perpetuates the problem. “Little Ivies” and “Public Ivies” and “Southern Ivies” or whatever. There are top ranked colleges. There are colleges that excel in XYZ fields. There are colleges that are urban or rural or suburban. There are colleges with international name recognition.
PLEASE CC - reconsider having Ivy League as a separate category. It simply perpetuates this strange division. Or, make categories for ALL the athletic conferences if it is so important.
@gallentjill I am glad things worked out for your dd. It’s really hard to know when to pull the plug. I have my nice and tidy philosophy, but the truth is that I have yet to be challenged. I think dd2 might have to give up one of her dance cos next year… I just hope she doesn’t give me too much resistance.
DD1 is a senior and applying to colleges. She got into UMich EA so after that she just applied to her “reaches”, all of which are true “reaches” for everyone. She’s not expecting to get into any and would be very, very happy to go to UMich. She’s a good student but nothing special.