As someone who is new to CC but has read it occasionally in the past, I am struck by how obsessed people on this board are with the Ivy League and Top Tier universities. From reading most posts, you’d think that your child’s life will be forever blighted if they don’t go to Harvard, Berkeley, Michigan, Georgetown, Pomona or one of perhaps 30 other colleges. In reality, 95% of Americans go to their local university or one of their state’s public institutions. Most are not insanely competitive or prohibitively expensive. The vast majority of students who go to these universities love them.
When I was in college, I was astonished how many parents pressured their children into going to any Ivy or equivalent university. This then translated into their children telling their classmates that it was an elite university or nothing. My parents discouraged me from applying to more than one or two “stretches” and while I wound up going to Brown, I had classmates who frankly had even better college experiences at other colleges.
I just think we need to maintain perspective. The vast majority of Americans, including highly successful Americans, did not go to “elite” colleges and universities. This obsession with elite colleges is frankly ruining the high school and college experiences of thousands of students.
I think there has always been an “us” versus “them” thing going on within societies. Sometimes it is manifested by class structure and so forth and other times it is less clearly marked but it has always been there. And where your darling kids go to school has always been a good way to make sure they stay in the upper crust.
What’s new, in my opinion, and adding a new wrinkle to the whole mix is the anger that is boiling up in the middle class. The lower class and/or the lower economic strata has always gotten the shaft one way or the other, someone has to go down in the coal mine or work the fields, and more than half the time they don’t even complain. But the middle class has always had just enough to keep them quiet, heavy set and happy. That isn’t happening as much anymore. The middle class is mobilized, angry, not falling for the same baloney as usually and demanding real changes in everything most especially governance.
The next person that replies will also tell you CC is skewed towards the views of the upper class especially the NE USA upper class. So, in that area, going Ivy is an ingrained big deal. Where I live, not so much, we respect the Ivies but down hear people are not quite as focused on what name is on the degree and it has less impact on what jobs are available to you. Out West, I am guessing, never lived there, places like Stanford are just as good or better that any Ivy. Duke is a great school too. There are lots of great schools. I’m not sure any of them are worth $65K a year but if you can get merit aid, and let me tell you that is how the game is played, it won’t cost $65K a year but it will be something to brag about and those people will get interviewed and if they are cool and smart they will go to the top and the rest of use can work under them.
This is a college message board. Most of my neighbors (and I live in the Northeast in an area most of you would regard as prestige obsessed- but really it’s not) would think the idea of worrying about where your kid is going to college is absurd. High achieving kid- State Flagship. Moderately talented kid- one of the directionals. A kid who needs an extra push to stay on track- lives at home and commutes to the local branch of the state U. Money is too tight for even that- community college with a “we’ll see” about the future.
Kids with “issues”- LD’s, some trouble with the law/disciplinary, clearly not interested in college but talented chef, graphic designer, etc- there are some college counselor type services in the area that specialize in that.
But you’ve got a kid with good scores and good grades whose teachers say “Great kid”? One and done- apply to the flagship early in the season; kid spends senior year on the prom planning committee and working on yearbook.
Even in the Northeast- the vast majority of HS kids are not being “ruined” by an elite college obsession.
You can’t extrapolate from what you read on CC. This is not a representative sampling of people with college bound kids in the US- because they are on a college message board. You can’t go on a support board for people with anorexia and then wonder why the CDC thinks we have an obesity crisis in the US. People who are obese aren’t getting support on an eating disorder message board about how to boost your dietary consumption to 1,000 calories a day. You can’t go to an AA meeting and wonder why nobody there knows how to drink in moderation (hint- a self-selected group of people who have a substance issue AND admit it…)
We are a self-selected group of people who worry/care/obsess about college. Go to Anytown USA and they will laugh hysterically at the “is Williams more elite than Amherst” posts or the “I got full tuition at Miami but I like Purdue better, what should I do?”
I agree with you @blossom but it is frustrating when posters specifically state they or their child is not interested in top tiers and they get advice about what top tier schools want. It isn’t as if “regular” people don’t seek help on CC, but the advice comes back formulated that way anyway a lot of the times. Luckily there are some good threads that go on for months/years looking for advice for regular kids - colleges for the B Jewish student for example.
Sample bias, all the way. And there are also plenty of threads very much like this one decrying the whole thing. And then there’s all the threads urging folks to look beyond the household names and discover all the other cool schools that are out there that aren’t so darned selective. The thing that brings me back to CC is hopefully being able to share some of the things we’ve learned from two fairly extensive college searches with other folks who are trying to identify good schools for their kids. There’s plenty of threads like that, too.
Annoyed by Ivy and prestige obsession on CC? Don’t click on those threads. Problem solved!
While many parent and student posts on CC reflect an uninformed, somewhat entitled, even naive approach to the college search and application process, I find that most of the regs and old-timers are a pretty consistent and unified voice against brand and status chasing. They are usually steering kids toward realistic perspectives, discouraging the whole “dream school” thing, and giving good advice about fit and safety schools as well as often ignored financial considerations.
Yes, the emphasis is on top schools. However, I am looking for mid-tier schools with merit options and have found a lot of useful information. Try searching for threads from @porcupine98 , @Lindagaf , @citymama9 and @lexluthor5 and you will see a different perspective.
I have also been really impressed by the financial prudence expressed here. Free ride at public university vs. debt or financial hardship to attend Ivy or other prestige option? Most posters will recommend following the money. Prestige rarely trumps debt. If money is no object, then prestige comes into play. I see a lot of people trying to talk down a student from his or her “dream school” when it is clearly unaffordable for his or her family. I also see good advice to kids who are shooting way too high given their stats or assume that if they apply to 20 reaches that surely they will get into one of them, and don’t need to worry about safeties.
As always, a great response from @blossom who pretty much sums it up accurately.
There is a school for everyone. If one thinks Podunk college is what is right for their kid then it’s all good. Alternately, the same for selective/Ivy.
Absorb info that is of interest and ignore what’s not. Find your kindred spirit, it’s very easy.
There are students out there who pass up Ivy and other top tier college acceptances for schools they feel are a better fit, and their families are fine with that.
Son received a special scholarship at Colgate but opted for a relatively unknown LAC with which he fell in love (as did we). His friend got into Penn but said he is instead going to SUNY Geneseo because it’s closer to home and he liked the atmosphere better.
I think it helps to understand that CC began (in large part) as a place for people who were chasing prestige to get information that would help them out. Over time the population visiting this site has broadened, and there has been increasing emphasis on following the money. Bargain-hunting suddenly became much more acceptable after the crash.
But I do agree that other than general information about interpreting financial aid offers, there isn’t much here for students and families who are looking at universities and colleges that don’t have some kind of national-level recognition.
From a west coast resident in an area like @blossoms that most would consider elite obsessed, the focus on top schools can be tied lately to the dysfunction in the UC system. In the past, the top students could do the whole reach, match, safety thing by just checking boxes on the UC app. The high stat kids were thrilled to go to UCB, UCLA, or UCSD. Now those same students, especially the tippy top ones are doing everything they can to avoid dealing with impacted majors, budget cuts, and the fear of needing 5-6 years to get done. Stanford is off the radar for most because “no one actually gets in” but the Ivies and the other top 20-30 schools are seen as much better options than staying in state.
I was blessed to grow up in Michigan where it was so much easier. We all thought if we studied hard and did well, we could go to UM or MSU. I don’t remember anyone in my sort of elite HS even talking about the Ivies or WUSTL or Vandy or any of the other top private schools. Why would you even consider $18,000 a year when you can go to UM for $7,000? Long time ago obviously.
imagine how much less stressful high school would be for the hyper competitive if they took only 1 or 2 ap’s a year, did not need to start 18 school clubs and take endless SAT prep classes and spend 1000x of extra hours studying in hopes of getting an extra 4 or 5 points on a test. there are so many great schools in the united states that you need not spend pointless days or weeks stressing over how and if you will get in. and for the group that does get in to an ivy, Stanford etc…and attend…many would have been much happier at any number of other schools and had a better undergrad experience.
I would chose muhlenberg ,hedrix or butler over any of the “top 10 schools”.
but that is me.
Bargain-hunting has become more acceptable after colleges and universities raised their tuition and fees by more than twice the rate of inflation over two generations.
Of course, when you compare the ratio of seats at UM/MSU to the population in Michigan, it is more similar to the ratio of seats at the entire UC system (rather than just UCB/UCLA/UCSD) to the population of California. But it seems that MSU is considered more respectable and acceptable to high achieving Michigan students than UCSC/UCR/UCM is to high achieving California students.
If you click on the Ivy or highest tiered college threads, you will get… people obsessed with those colleges. Chances has their share as well. I’d like you to find a thread on the other forums where someone prestige-obsessed was not challenged on that thought process. I would give the caveat that sometimes higher ranked schools that match a poster’s stats are recommended because they meet need.
“But it seems that MSU is considered more respectable and acceptable to high achieving Michigan students than UCSC/UCR/UCM is to high achieving California students.”
the entire mindset of competitive students needs to be changed. it is ok not to go Berkeley or ucla if you need to stay in state as California resident. (doubt it will change anytime soon for those types)
on the other end you have people signing up for fake for profits in hopes of furthering their career track only to be ripped off. (yes this is starting to trend downward)
@MotherOfDragons Yes I am “dunning” them for looking at the Ivies precisely because I went to Brown and worked for two years in Brown admissions after graduating (if you read “A is for Admission” you’ll see that this is a common practice). I appreciate everyone’s perspective. When I worked in admissions, the perspective I gleamed is that because so many Americans are financially insecure–because for them the American dream had faded–they mistakenly concluded that an Ivy education would guarantee their child success. if only it was that easy.
As for bargain hunting, no Ivy education is a bargain. You’ll only get substantial financial aid if you are relatively poor (with the possible exception of Harvard). Each year we had hundreds of students decline their offers because their families would not or could not meet their EFCs. When I spoke to them, I often heard, “but we thought your financial aid was generous”. It is, but not for people with incomes over $100K.