<p>@turtletime, they are not assumptions. They are facts about the situation in our area. My daughter has been taking AP classes at her high school for 4 years now and I don’t know of a single AP classmate who went to our local cc after high school. Some AP students took full ride scholarships at second and third-tier 4-year colleges, obviously for financial reasons. They didn’t choose our cc. The dual classes admissions requirements aren’t particularly selective for the high school students. The scores required to enroll in dual classes are in fact lower than the average scores for our high school. My daughter loves her dual class, and she has a fantastic teacher, but the fact is that 90% of the kids in her class took it because they heard it was easier than AP.</p>
<p>For clarification:
“The students” refers to high school students. These dual enrollment high school students earn their college credit at an actual university or community college. </p>
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It is no different than in my area. The AP track was more rigorous than the dual enrollment track; however, the top students did both. </p>
<p>Our dual enrollment classes are on the high school campus, not the cc campus, but I think the high school students in these classes are overall significantly stronger students than the ones taking the equivalent class on campus. I see no reason to assume that on-campus classes with “real” college students are going to be more rigorous. Along the same lines, our middle school students who enroll in high school level math classes (at their middle schools) blow away the high school students enrolled in the same courses (at their high schools). Being a year or two younger matters much less than the fact that they are, overall, much stronger students.</p>
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I would hope you wouldn’t assume such a thing. There’s no data to back it, let alone the variety in schools across the nation.</p>
<p>Having looked at various colleges with D1 and now going through process with D2, we’ve found that how much credit engineering programs give for AP credit varies widely. Some schools, like the one turbo93 describes, give little to none. Some will give credit but recommend against it as they feel their courses are more rigorous and students struggle more if they go straight into higher levels. However, some engineering schools embrace AP credit and even work with the students to ensure they succeed in next classes. E.g. D1’s school told us that kids with AP credit who skip the equivalent classes there have a higher average GPA in the next level classes than those who don’t. Why? (1) They have special sections for AP kids in key classes (like Calc 3) where the faculty knows the AP curriculum and covers any topics they feel need more attention. (2) They THEORIZE kids that repeat the class sometimes assume they will do well in that class so spend less study time (so they can spend more time on other classes). Note the second one is just a theory as they try to explain the GPA data - their theory, not mine. Anyway, many kids come in with 30-40+ hours and either graduate in three years or double major. Coming in as a sophomore also gives registration perks as others have noted, and potentially housing too.
If you are interested in particular colleges, most of them have their AP policies on line so you can see how helpful AP is for different majors. </p>
<p>Dual enrollment means many differnet things as many here have described. In MN it can definitely save money. My D15 has a friend who will graduate high school and graduate with a BS in Engineering from the U of MN by completing a well-thought out program maximizing DE and AP classes. In MN we don’t have to pay for the classes the kdis take at U of MN or the community colleges. This student will graduate with his MS when his high school classmates are Jr’s in college. Not the right path for everyone, but for the right student it is a HUGE savings. My D15 opted to just go the AP route. MN has recently opened CD to sophmores as well, and D18 is trying to decide which route to take.</p>
<p>Now, if I had to pay 300 per credit for these calsse, I would not even consider it. Just depends.</p>
<p>D took a lot of AP courses plus a couple of DE because that was standard for advanced students at her HS. We didn’t particularly plan on this being a money saver, but as it turned out, she matriculated to our state flagship, which is fairly generous with AP credit, and consequently expects to graduate a semester early. This will definitely be a financial savings. If she’d been determined to squeeze her program, she could even have graduated a full academic year early. However she’s in an honors program, has a minor as well, and will be doing a study abroad. She used AP credits even in her major, and found herself adequately prepared for the higher level work. Since others have reported on this thread that AP is not really useful, I thought I’d share this different experience.</p>
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<p>In general, a course serving mainly advanced students can be more rigorous than a similar course serving mainly on-level students, although it is not necessarily the case for every comparison (schools do vary). A common example where this is not the case would be the high schools that force students two years ahead in math to take calculus at a slow pace (AB junior year, rest of BC senior year) instead of having a one year BC course that such students should be able to handle easily (the way on-level students are expected to keep up with frosh calculus in college).</p>
<p>Regardless of the rigor of the course content, there can be a difference in the format of the course. Actual college courses (at least in colleges, not sure about dual enrollment) tend to expect students to be more self-motivated, with significantly less hand holding. For example, instead of daily homework assignments in high school, there may be weekly or less frequent assignments in college; a student with a tendency to procrastinate can more easily fall behind in the college course. The pacing of college courses is often faster as well.</p>
<p>AP courses are more likely to be equivalent in content to specific college courses (as determined by the college) than they are to the format of college courses.</p>
<p>Mathyone, then you should preface with “in our area.” It’s just not the case in mine. My DD beat our 120 other kids when applying to be part of the middle college program. Much of her class moved in this direction for time as many are already doing professional internships and research as high schoolers.</p>
<p>There is often confusion as to “how” classes are deemed easier. I’d say MOST kids find college classes easier when they go to college. AP’s take a semester class that meets twice a week into a full year class that meets daily. They have to fill with mass amounts of busy work just to justify the time. AP’s are labor intensive but that doesn’t make the material superior nor the students stronger learners. They have to master the material in half the time and have little to no assigned homework to pad their grade. Some kids are ready for that at 15 and others, not so much.</p>
<p>Look, I value all different methods of getting through high school. Would be nice if others were the same.</p>
<p>I thought I’d share my experience with APs since I’ve only shared how it is dealt with in my area. </p>
<p>In my school (and I might go as far as to say my state), the top caliber students are EXPECTED to take some form of rigorous courses whether that be AP, dual enrollment, IB, or AICE. I didn’t plan on taking the number of APs that I did nor did I go in thinking of the savings. I was interested in the teachers and having classes with my friends. At my school, AP and dual enrollment were at NO ADDED cost to the student. The student did not have to pay for the college classes, books fees, exams, etc. </p>
<p>Going into college, I was able to enter in with about 30 credits, give or take a few. I am a first year student “sophomore”. Of those 30 credits, I was able to start skip some general sciences and the majority of my general education requirements. My degree in engineering and Honors College degree requires 149 credits minimum. I will only have to take at most 100 credits to earn my degree. With the added time, I have the opportunity to earn my bachelors and masters in engineering in FOUR years. It’s a great opportunity. Will I do it? I don’t know, but I have the chance to. </p>
<p>Additionally, the rigor of my high school classes allowed me to receive a generous merit package which, in addition to Florida’s state scholarship, essentially PAY me to go to school. Nothing out of pocket. Significant savings across the board. </p>
<p>This doesn’t happen for everyone, but this a great example of it “just depends”. It depends on the student, the university, the school, the format, the content, the courses, etc…</p>
<p>@turtletime, I don’t even know which post of mine you are objecting to. Was it the one where the 5 sentences I wrote contained the phrases “At our school, … at our high school…at our local cc”? Was it my post on “Our” dual enrollment classes? I wasn’t talking about your dual enrollment classes. Should I write “Our dual enrollment classes IN OUR AREA” next time? </p>
<p>My oldest two daughters are currently enrolled in Early College High School, which in our district means that their high school campus is located on the CC campus and they attend both HS and college classes starting the first semester of one’s freshman year. My oldest graduates in May, with a HS diploma one week, and an AA the next week. The only thing we have had to pay for is the Student Health Fee, and any materials (not textbooks) needed for the course. The majority of college classes they take are UC transferrable, so most of the colleges D1 is applying to will accept the units. Privates probably won’t, but my daughter will then just have an additional degree in hand. </p>
<p>There are numerous benefits to this program outside of just the economics, although some are probably more relevant to my community, and may not be relevant in other areas. Although it is CC, and not the same quality of coursework found at an upper tier college, many of the instructors are fantastic, and provide a rigorous and interesting course. I know this for a fact, because I attended class there myself until last May when I graduated. Many of the students there (the college ones) are in fact hardworking and intelligent people who add to the quality of the experience. Being put into a CC class at 15 years of age (actually 14 for my middle daughter-- she skipped a grade) is an academic and social challenge. CC teachers don’t hold your hand, they don’t make you go to the office if you are tardy, or attend Saturday school if you have absences. It’s a make it or break it on your own environment. Being in a class at 15 with the rest of the class being made up of 18-60 year olds is daunting, but also allows for personal growth in social confidence, skills which will be beneficial both when you move on to the 4 year university, and when you go out into the work force.</p>
<p>Another benefit, which is huge in a quality of life way, is that there is NO bullying in their program. None, it is absolutely not tolerated. In fact, any real misbehavior results in immediate removal of the student from the school. Because it isn’t a zoned school, they are not required to keep any student who doesn’t adhere to the program guidelines. And for whatever reason, the regular college kids seem to have moved passed that stage. For parents ultra focused on academics, they may not realize how freeing this is for their student. Where I live, all of the public high schools have at least some gang activity (and a couple schools have a lot), and huge student populations (average about 1000 kids per grade level). The public high schools also have Honors, IB and AP programs, but that only goes so far when your kid has to do PE or any regular level course like Health with the main student body. If we lived in Beverly Hills, the gang stuff wouldn’t be an issue, but the bullying certainly would. My brother-in-law just relocated to a new state solely because of bullying in his daughter’s expensive private school, well both of the schools, because they had already tried moving to a different school in the community and had the same results. (Northern family in a Southern community-- didnt work so well) </p>
<p>I realize all of this is not entirely relevant to the OT, but it is a breakdown of possible pros and cons of some DE programs. </p>
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<p>Yes, this is the true difference between college courses and advanced/AP high school courses that may cover similar content. The high school student who take frosh calculus at a college and the high school student who takes AP calculus BC in high school may learn similar content as far as calculus is concerned, but the one taking the college course also experiences and learns how to be a self-motivated college student.</p>
<p>AP classes require you pass the test. The nationwide pass rate is about 60%. </p>
<p>PSEO or concurrent ed just require you get a passing grade. That is a much much higher percentage of success. </p>
<p>However, the pool of students in high school AP courses may not necessarily be similar in academic ability and motivation compared to the pool of high school students who go to a nearby college to take college courses. This is not unlike the difference between various AP tests (for example, in 2013, 59.3% passed calculus AB, but 79.9% passed calculus BC, which covers more material, indicating a selection effect on the test takers).</p>
<p>“Being in a class at 15 with the rest of the class being made up of 18-60 year olds is daunting, but also allows for personal growth in social confidence,” I don’t think many 14-15 year olds would want to be in that kind of social situation instead of in class with their friends. A few, perhaps, but it’s not something my kids would have agreed to.</p>
<p>I agree with mathyone. Not many kids would want to do it alone. I can understand if they had friends who also dual enrolled. Being the only 15 year in a class full of 18-60 year olds is one of the many reasons why I didn’t go down the dual enrollment path. </p>
<p>I never said it was for everyone, but for some it is a great alternative. My older daughter was a bit introverted before entering high school, and is now quite self assured. She was very, very anxious about attending our zoned hs, because of the gang activity, as well as the fact that the district changed the zoning lines by one block, moving us into a different hs than all her friends. So she was heading into a huge school where she would know no one – at least with her ED school, each student was in facing the same challenge of the unknown. That creates a more open attitude – all the high school students were looking to make friends, and freshman college students are equally nervous and excited. It’s a challenge, but it was one that ended up giving my girls confidence. Well, the oldest one at any rate. My middle daughter is quite confident on her own, where ever she finds herself. </p>
<p>Both of my daughters opted to enroll in this program on their own, so no pushing on my part. I’m very proud of them, that at a young age they learned that they don’t need their friends around them to fit in or succeed (and they can go to the restroom by themselves too). I think when they go off to a 4 year university, they will be a bit more prepared for some of the separation anxieties, as well as coping with a college environment. Of course it won’t be the same; they won’t come home every day, and will have to do their own laundry, but they are up for that.</p>
<p>@Mitchklong – test scores are not always the best indicators of ability. Going to class every time, turning in quality homework, and engaging in classroom discussions is of more value in my opinion. Some students just don’t test well, and some instructors write terrible tests, which is why colleges look at multiple types of info when selecting their admits.</p>