How does one become a lawyer?

Graduate School Law School
1

<p>I'm not looking for answers like "one studies hard" or things like that, i mean what are the requirements?</p>

<p>From what I understand, you need great grades-3.7 or better would be best.
A great LSAT score (Can someone tell me what this is? I mean whats on it.)</p>

<p>Is that it? Do you need volunteer work, work experience (buisness school needs it) anything else? </p>

<p>Is it the same to get into med school except that you need better grades (4.0) and a good mcat score?</p>

<p>Do you need a degree in a particular field? What degree is best? Political Science, Economics?</p>

<p>Also is it true that it doesn't matter very much what undergrad school you go to as long as you do well? (Of course Harvard undergrad is better then UW-Wisconsin, but by how much?) I don't really care for undergrad, I just want to go to a top law school like stanford, yale or harvard.</p>

<p>Thanks all! Im just a junior in high school, and I don't know anything about becoming a lawyer. (I'm pretty sure I want to do it though.)</p>

2

<p>You don't need a 3.7. You don't need decent grades at all. If you can get into an accredited 4-year school, manage to graduate and don't black out during the LSAT, you can get into law school. As long as you don't go to one of the crappy schools that fails some percentage of its first year students as a matter of policy, graduating takes no effort at all. Then you just need to pass the bar exam, which isn't difficult at all (in almost every jurisdiction; California is the exception). That's all there is to it. Being a "good" lawyer or a "lawyer with an actual job" is a different story, but just becoming a lawyer is laughably simple (if expensive and time-consuming).</p>

3

<p>Americanski,</p>

<p>You're the first person I've ever heard call the process laughably simple.</p>

4

<p>Well, I would say that the bare minimum (getting a JD and being admitted to practice somewhere) is simple for an intelligent person. Certainly compared to how difficult people make it out to be, or compared to med school. However, there is a tremendous distinction between somebody who manages to become a practicing attorney somewhere and somebody who has decent grades from a good school and a high paying job. I mean, even the difference between the amount of work required to get a C (which is virtually none at all) and a B (which takes the best efforts of some very good students) is huge. The gap between B and A work is even greater. So this is why first-year students kill themselves studying, but the bare minimum is very easy to achieve.</p>

5

<p>I am not sure where Americanski is getting his information, but it is not consistent with my experience and observations. Most law schools rank their students based on GPA. Most law firms make decisions whether to interview and/or hire based in substantial part on class rank. The result is often fierce competition among law students. This competition is tolerated (sometimes encouraged) in law schools because being able to deal with competitive pressures is an essential element of many areas of the practice of law.</p>

6

<p>Plus, your GPA does matter to law schools...you can't
[quote]
You don't need decent grades at all. If you can get into an accredited 4-year school

[/quote]
</p>

<p>and expect to get into a Yale, Stanford, or Harvard. According to <a href="http://www.lsat.org%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.lsat.org&lt;/a> the average GPA of admitted students is:</p>

<p>Yale- 3.96 (75th%) and 3.79 (25th%)
Stanford- 3.94 and 3.77
Harvard- 3.94 and 3.73</p>

7

<p>Approximately 40% of the people who apply to ABA accredited law schools in a typical year are not admitted anywhere. Of those who graduate from law school (which takes considerable effort), the percentage who pass varies quite a bit from state to state, but is below 80% in many states, and below 70% in at least four. In California, it often drops below 50% for the July administration, and below 40% for the February administration.</p>

<p>Even Harvard graduates managed only an 84% pass rate in California last July.</p>

8

<p>
[quote]
Most law schools rank their students based on GPA.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Sure, and if you don't care what you class rank is, but only want to graduate so you can take the bar, then you wouldn't care about your GPA. The point is that it's very difficult to fail out of law school unless you don't take the exam or really screw up. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Plus, your GPA does matter to law schools... you can't and expect to get into a Yale, Stanford, or Harvard.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Uh, great point, since those are the only three law schools in the country. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Approximately 40% of the people who apply to ABA accredited law schools in a typical year are not admitted anywhere.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Sure, which is why I qualified what I said with "for an intelligent person." Dumb people and people who put absolutely no effort into it whatsoever aren't going to get in. But a guy at a mediocre undergrad with mediocre grades could decide late in his junior year that he wanted to go to law school, take the LSAT with minimal preparation, get into a crummy school and eventually become a lawyer. Nothing like this could ever, ever work for med school. The process for law school is ridiculously simple by comparision; you could even decide, out of the blue, in September of your senior year, that you wanted to go to law school and have multiple acceptances by December. You're probably not going to be at an Ivy League school, but you could get in somewhere.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Of those who graduate from law school (which takes considerable effort), the percentage who pass varies quite a bit from state to state, but is below 80% in many states, and below 70% in at least four. In California, it often drops below 50% for the July administration, and below 40% for the February administration.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Again, merely graduating does not take considerable effort at all. It's a completely different story if you want to graduate at the top of your class, but passing is not difficult. The California bar is by far the most difficult in the country, which is why I singled it out as one that even an intelligent person might fail despite making a serious effort.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Even Harvard graduates managed only an 84% pass rate in California last July.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>But well over 90% everywhere else. Realistically, the only ones who failed non-California bars either choked badly or (more likely) failed because of hubris.</p>

9

<p>
[quote]
Uh, great point, since those are the only three law schools in the country.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Americanski, did you read the OP's questions? The OP was wondering about going to one of these three law schools, and your original answer was misleading since you said that getting good grades is not important to get into law school. I corrected the misleading information with the truth about getting into the three law schools that the OP wondered about.</p>

10

<p>"The point is that it's very difficult to fail out of law school unless you don't take the exam or really screw up."</p>

<p>The cumulative attrition rate for students at ABA-accredited law schools generally ranges from 11% to 13%. Not all of them are forced to leave, but many of them are. Those who take the attitude that "merely graduating does not take considerable effort at all" are well represented among them. </p>

<p>It's easier to become a lawyer than it is to become a physician. To advise a 16-year-old like the OP that it's "laughably simple" to become a lawyer is irresponsible and misleading. There are a number of gating mechanisms along the way that have a considerable cummulative effect. Two thirds of all who enter college fail to achieve the bachelor's degree. A high percentage of people who take the LSAT don't apply anywhere to law school because of low scores. Forty percent of those who apply aren't admitted anywhere. At least eleven percent of those who matriculate don't graduate. Of those who do, a significant percentage fail the bar. </p>

<p>It takes considerable, sustained effort to become a lawyer.</p>

11

<p>Very few law students seek to barely scrape by without worrying that they'll finish in the bottom of the class. At a decent school, the attrition rates are negligible and almost entirely a result of personal choice, since any grade below a C is unheard of and even C's are reserved for the truly terrible. The only situation in which I can imagine somebody would slack off this much is if they had a guaranteed job through a family connection that only required that they pass the bar. </p>

<p>
[quote]
It's easier to become a lawyer than it is to become a physician.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This is a major, major understatement. The two aren't even comparable. There is no pre-law curriculum and no pre-reqs. Law applicants never have to go through something like organic chemistry. In almost every case, there is no interview for law school and the entire admissions process, as I mentioned, can take just a couple months. Med students kill themselves studying because that's what they need just to pass, not to be in the top of the class. Only someone of absolutely extraordinary intelligence could become a doctor in this country without considerable effort, while it is easily possible for a moderately intelligent person to slack his or her way to a JD.</p>

<p>
[quote]
There are a number of gating mechanisms along the way that have a considerable cummulative effect.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, ok, but none of them is even close to insurmountable for an intelligent person. Getting a bachelor's degree is certainly not a grueling challenge, especially if you take a soft schedule designed to maximize your GPA. The LSAT is not that difficult and easy enough to learn with any kind of effort. The point is that there is not going to be any point where you can't help but think, "God, this is so hard. I can't believe how difficult this is," while a prospective MD will inevitably feel this way dozens of times in college, the application process and med school. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Of those who do, a significant percentage fail the bar.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>How many NEVER pass the bar? Plenty fail on the first try but ultimately succeed, often less than a year later. I think the number who never, ever pass is probably fairly low. And that isn't to say that they couldn't pass the bar in a different jurisdiction if they gave it a shot.</p>

12

<p>Step 1: Go to college.
Step 2: Kick butt in your classes and get a 4.5.
Step 3: Kick butt on the LSAT and score a 177.
Step 4: Apply to Harvard Law. Get in.
Step 5: Take out a mortgage on your parents' house. You'll need about $170k.
Step 6: Go to law school.
Step 7: Kick butt in Harvard Law.
Step 8: Make Law review, moot court, etc.
Step 9: Graduate.
Step 10: Kick butt on the bar and pass with a perfect score.
Step 11: Get a job at a big law firm.
Step 12: Work your butt off and make tons of money.</p>

13

<p>^Those steps are a little out of order, since somebody at HLS is almost certainly going to have an offer from a major firm well before they graduate, especially if they made law review (which certainly isn't necessary).</p>

14

<p>oh, sorry. it's
Step 9: Summer for a big law firm. Get full-time offer.
Step 10: Graduate.
Step 11: Kick butt on the bar and pass with a perfect score.
Step 12: Work your butt off, make tons of money, and buy a 30000sq ft palacial compound in Greenwich, CT. Oh, and have a nice life.</p>

15

<p>You forget the part about losing all morals and ethical standards......and I wanna be one too.</p>

16

<p>Ya. That comes with Step 12, where you make tons of money and buy a $20mil house while kids in Somalia are starving.</p>

<p>I used to want to be a lawyer, but now I gave up on that because investment bankers and lawyers to basically the same thing and investment bankers make a lot more money.</p>

17

<p>Only until we have to represent you.....and the the table turns.</p>

18

<p>Amerikanski,</p>

<p>Your accusation that I have made a "major, major understatement" is an overstatement. I merely observed that it's harder to become a physician than a lawyer. Had I said "a little harder," you might have a beef. But a statement that x>y says only that the ratio exceeds one to one. It implies nothing about how much it exceeds it.</p>

<p>So how much harder is it to become a physician than a lawyer? Let's talk about definitions first. </p>

<p>How hard is it, for example to become a U.S. Marine? I hear boot camp is quite strenuous. At my age, it is literally impossible to become a U.S. Marine, and there are legal ceilings on such things.</p>

<p>The definition of "harder" that I was assuming relates to how much screening occurs in populating a profession.</p>

<p>More screening takes place for would-be physicians than for would-be attorneys; I wouldn’t say there’s "incomparably" more, however.</p>

<p>If you compare "outputs" for the attorney-screening process to the outputs of the physician screening process, the numbers are actually quite comparable: 836,156 physicians in the US (according to the AMA report entitled "Physician Characteristics and Distribution, 2003-2004"), and 1,050,000 licensed attorneys in the US, according to a December 2003 interview with the president of the ABA. There are 83% as many physicians as attorneys.</p>

<p>Now let's look at "inputs" into the screening process: a survey I saw recently stated that 7.2% of incoming freshmen at public universities listed responded "physician" when asked about their most likely future occupation, and 4.1% responded "attorney" or "judge."</p>

<p>There were 17,978 seats for first-year students in US medical schools last year, and 37,364 candidates applying for them. That means about 48% of the applicants were admitted to at least one medical school. I have seen the attrition rate described as “virtually zero.”</p>

<p>There were 48,132 seats for first-year students at ABA-accredited law schools last year. The figure I’ve usually seen mentioned is that about 60% of the law school applicants are admitted to at least one school. The attrition rate for those who matriculate ranges from 11% to 13%. </p>

<p>The passing rate for the licensure exam for graduates of US and Canadian graduates of allopathic medical schools is typically around 94% for first-time takers, and over 50% for repeat takers. The is around 77% for first-time osteopathic graduates, and about 65% for graduates of foreign medical schools.</p>

<p>“How many NEVER pass the bar?”</p>

<p>According to the Law School Admission Council (LSAC) National Longitudinal Bar Passage Study, 94.8% of all graduates passed the bar within five years of the first time they took it.</p>

<p>So, in summary, there are about 1.75 college freshman who see themselves as future doctors for every one who sees himself/herself as a “future lawyer”.</p>

<p>A significant percentage of these fail to graduate from college at all, which constitutes the first great screening for both career paths.</p>

<p>It’s true that organic chemistry constitutes another great screening on the physician track, and that there is no comparable experience for pre-law undergraduates.</p>

<p>The last great screening mechanism for would-be physicians is medical school admissions; 48% of those left make it through here. 60% of the law school applicants make it through their comparable screening.</p>

<p>And here the screening gets tougher for lawyers. Their attrition rate in law school is 11%-13%, compared to “virtually zero” for physicians. More than five percent of the law school graduates never make it through the bar exam gate. (Among the successful candidates, there are indeed a significant number who move to another state in search of lower standards.)</p>

<p>It’s after they pass the bar that attorneys face what may be the cruelest screening mechanism of them all: the job market. Young physicians rarely experience unemployment. But while there are 1,050,000 licensed attorneys, according to the ABA, but only about 600,000 of them are employed as lawyers, judges, or administrative law judges, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Some of the disparity is due to retirement, and some to the fact that a legal education is generally more useful in the business world than a medical education. But some of it is due to looser screening: it is, after all, harder to become a physician than it is to become a lawyer.</p>

19

<p>
[quote]
If you compare "outputs" for the attorney-screening process to the outputs of the physician screening process, the numbers are actually quite comparable: 836,156 physicians in the US (according to the AMA report entitled "Physician Characteristics and Distribution, 2003-2004"), and 1,050,000 licensed attorneys in the US, according to a December 2003 interview with the president of the ABA.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This is, of course, a pointless level of analysis. You may as well claim that, since there are more than 1500 students at Harvard Law School, but fewer than 1000 at George Mason, GMU is probably more selective than HLS. You can probably see why this doesn't make much sense.</p>

<p>
[quote]
a survey I saw recently stated that 7.2% of incoming freshmen at public universities listed responded "physician" when asked about their most likely future occupation, and 4.1% responded "attorney" or "judge."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>For one thing, surveying only public school students isn't entirely helpful, as private school students are significantly overrepresented at med and law school and are generally more likely to go to graduate school overall.</p>

<p>
[quote]
There were 17,978 seats for first-year students in US medical schools last year, and 37,364 candidates applying for them.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>On the other hand, there are more than four times as many seats at law schools and roughly 100K applicants. So I think it's worth pointing out that, while prospective med students outnumbered prospective law students in your survey by better than 1.5 to 1, there are almost three times as many actual law applicants than med applicants. This should suggest a whole lot to you about how grueling the pre-med curriculum is. It's designed in part to "weed out" incapable applicants and is obviously having a tremendous effect. More than 7% of all college students (again ignoring the lack of public school students in the survey) intend to apply to med school but fewer than 40,000 actually do.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I have seen the attrition rate described as “virtually zero.”

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Because med schools never accept applicants they don't expect to ultimately pass. On the other hand, lower ranked schools have curves desgined to fail some percentage of the first-year class. But the students they accept (and thus give at least a chance to pass) are so grossly under-qualified that a comparable med student would never even get an interview (again, an element not part of almost any law school application process).</p>

<p>
[quote]
And here the screening gets tougher for lawyers.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Again, no, it does not. The curricula aren't even comparable and the standards are nothing alike. Except at low-ranked schools, which would not exist if not for the desire of schools to make money and the fact that the ABA restrictions on new law schools (which are springing up all the time) are nothing like the AMA restrictions on med schools (when was the last time a new med school was licensed in the United States?), failure is almost unheard of. </p>

<p>
[quote]
It’s after they pass the bar that attorneys face what may be the cruelest screening mechanism of them all: the job market.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This is completely ridiculous. The unemployment rate for attorneys is something like 1%. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Some of the disparity is due to retirement, and some to the fact that a legal education is generally more useful in the business world than a medical education.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Indeed, this is responsible for nearly all of the disparity.</p>

20

<p>Amerikanski,</p>

<p>"On the other hand, there are more than four times as many seats at law schools and roughly 100K applicants. So I think it's worth pointing out that, while prospective med students outnumbered prospective law students in your survey by better than 1.5 to 1, there are almost three times as many actual law applicants than med applicants."</p>

<p>The precise ratio of ABA-accredited first year law school seats to first year med school seats is 2.7 to 1. </p>

<p>I cited a variety of statistics to give the overall picture. The number of attorneys and the number of physicians is not meaningful in isolation. But it's not a "pointless level of analysis." It's an essential part of the overall picture. </p>

<p>I agree that the attrition rate is "close to zero" for medical students because "never accept applicants they don't expect to ultimately pass." Again, my post acknowledged that prospective physicians are more tightly screened before they enter medical school, but that observation does not obviate the fact that law schools eliminate a significant number of would-be attorneys (particularly those lower in the pecking order, as you have noted), and the bar exam eliminates another five percent. That drops the ratio further.</p>

<p>It's perhaps also worth observing that there are states like California that allow people to become members of the bar by untraditional routes (schools accredited by California but not the ABA, unaccredited schools, graduates of foreign law schools, and graduates of correspondence schools). All of these categories of candidate combined accounted for about four percent of the people who passed the California bar last July (a total of 169 out of more than four thousand successful candidates). This route is unavailable in most states.</p>

<p>The number of graduates of foreign medical schools who become licensed physicians in the US is significantly higher (about 5,000 a year). </p>

<p>Add these categories of physicians and attorneys to the picture, and the ratio of newly minted physicians to newly minted attorneys drops to less than 1 to 2.</p>

<p>"The unemployment rate for attorneys is something like 1%," you note.</p>

<p>Here's a quote from an article in the National Law Journal: "The 'real' rate is higher than the official one, though it's impossible to say by how much. The government considers all those working more than one hour a week in their chosen fields to be employed."</p>

<p>For those who are interested, here's a link to statistics about employment of recent law graduates:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.nalp.org/content/index.php?pid=274%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nalp.org/content/index.php?pid=274&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>