<p>Son is a good student. Likes school, likes learning. Has taken the ACT twice, the first time scoring a 29 and the second time scoring a 31. Took two AP classes as a junior, scored 5s on both. Is taking two more next year. 3.8ish GPA (all As except for a B+ in Physics). His school is not at all competitve, maybe 25 percent go to any kind of four year college and maybe only 5 percent even go out of state. he wants to study languages and international relations in college, wants someday to work for an internatinal aid organization like UNICEF. (I know plans change, but this is just to give you an idea of his interests.) Strong community leadership ECs. Is thinking at this point about LACS, especially Middlebury for languages and Macalester for IR. These schools are not the very top LACs but they are fairly close, and I'm wondering whether if he is admitted, will he be overwhelmed? And this is not even tomention Yale or Stanford, which he tosses out every now and then, as in "Maybe I should apply just to see if I get in." Should I discourage? Encourage? Remain neutral?</p>
<p>When admitted, virtually no one drops out of these schools because they can't do the work. It's a real black eye for the admissions office and for the campus as a whole when this happens.</p>
<p>When you see the 25%-75%tile statistics for standardized tests or GPAs on any campus, remember that a full 25% are admitted and attending with LOWER test scores and GPAs. And by no means do these students end up consigned to the lowest quarter of the graduating class four years later.</p>
<p>I say reach. Why not? As long as you have some good safeties and he understands that reaches really are reaches and doesn't totally fall in love with something he may well not get. At the same time he should be reasonable in his expectations, have a good grasp on what his stats mean, in terms of admittance chances at certain schools, and should really, really look around for safety and match schools that can offer him really good programs in the things he is interested in.</p>
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His school is not at all competitve, maybe 25 percent go to any kind of four year college and maybe only 5 percent even go out of state.
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<p>This could be a little "hook" in your son's favor. If his high school is new to the most selective colleges on his list, they may be interested in adding yet another notch to their belts.</p>
<p>Given how well your son has done on standardized tests (including AP exams), there's every indication that he won't be eaten alive at any college he attends.</p>
<p>As long as he realizes that acceptance will be an uphill battle at the Ivies and their ilk (as it is for most everyone), he shouldn't hesitate to apply if he's interested.</p>
<p>You don't mention finances. I am always okay with a reach if the student understands it is a reach and if the money is there to pay for it. What I have seen that I hate is cases where a student applies to a reach, is accepted and that has to face the fact that they can't afford it.</p>
<p>OP - Your S's profile is interesting -- male, thinking Tier 1 colleges despite attending a Tier 3 high school, appealing ECs, and intriguing intended Major. He might just be accepted at a reach school, even though plenty of kids with better academic records get rejected. I say Heron is exactly right -- go for it, but make sure your S's list has some matches and safties (including financial safeties). Good luck to you and your son.</p>
<p>Interesting comments. He definitely understands that applying to the more selective schools is a gamble. (He plans to apply in August to the honors college of one of our state schools as a safety -- he should know in the early fall if he's been admitted.) My real concern is if he is admitted to a more selective school, how will he fare? We just don't have a lot of experience around here with kids going off to highly selective colleges.</p>
<p>Edited to address the finances issue: He is aware that this is something of a gamble too. (The in-state school should be a financial as well as academic safety. And if it is not, we should find out early enough in the fall to make some adjustments.) But I have been saving many years for his college, I have a very stable job, and I am willing to borrow a reasonable amount to send him someplace where he will be happy and challenged (but not too challenged . . . back to the original question! I don't want to pay $50,000 a year for him to be miserable somewhere.)</p>
<p>"if he is admitted, how will he fare?"</p>
<p>He'll fare at least as well as he would in you state flagship university (where there will be more distractions and less support). Translation: Don't worry about this. If a school admits him it's because they think he'll do well at the school.</p>
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What I have seen that I hate is cases where a student applies to a reach, is accepted and that has to face the fact that they can't afford it.
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<p>Agreed. I encourage parents to talk frankly with their children at the start of the college search process about how much money they can afford to spend each year on total college costs. Even parents who have always felt that family finances are a taboo topic for teenagers should reconsider, realizing that it's better to have some advance warning that some colleges may be too pricey. I've worked with many students who do get admitted to "dream" colleges only to find out that they can't enroll because their parents were not forthcoming about the final bottom line. Sure, for some, the acceptance still means a lot, but it seems far saner to have The Money Talk up front.</p>
<p>Note, however, that the colleges that "Already?" mentions all have excellent need-based financial aid and claim to provide 100% of Demonstrated Need. Granted, there can sometimes be a big chasm between the official "Demonstrated Need" and what a family truly feels is affordable given their own unique circumstances. Also, in some cases, if the need is met with hefty loans, students may be better served by opting for a college that won't leave them in a big hole in four years.</p>
<p>If he has a good work ethic and is willing to seek out assistance (from the writing center when doing papers, for example), then he should be fine. If he's the type of kid who has never had to study, and is proud of the As he gets from despite never studying -- then I might be a little concerned.</p>
<p>I've known kids from both inner city and rural schools who went to selective colleges, kids who lacked the preparation that prep schools and competitive high schools offer. They are often overwhelmed in the beginning. They often have to work harder than other students. Many kids -- most kids -- rise to the challenge, work hard and succeed. There will always be a handful who get so overwhelmed they can't handle it. I agree with other posters that if the college accepts him, they think he can do it.</p>
<p>As long as you are realistic about the finances and the cold reality of selective college admissions, I would say: absolutely encourage him to apply. If you can't reach for something when you're 18 -- when will you?</p>
<p>As a parent, you should do one of the online financial aid calculators (figure out both the FAFSA and Profile numbers) to get a sense of what colleges think you can afford.</p>
<p>Give us a sense of his learning style. Is he willing to go to a teacher for help if he doesn't understand something? Did he get frustrated by his grades in Physics or did he see them as a challenge to do more and work harder? Did he slack off in that class once he saw that the material wasn't coming to him intuitively? Did he do self prep for the AP's he took or did he go in based on what he learned in class? And finally (and very important) does he like to read... even dense, sometimes complicated stuff??? Does he read on his own for pleasure?</p>
<p>I showed up at a competitive college and felt quite overwhelmed.... the prep school and top magnet-type school kids seemed so well prepared- they had done college type research papers, whereas at my public HS we really just did the "regurgitate the material" papers and got extra credit for having a nice cover. Many of them had a couple of languages under their belts.... fluent in French AND German, or fluent in Spanish, and Latin since middle school. They were used to reading-- lots of reading-- and then having discussions about what they read, whether it was history or current events or Jane Austen. (we filled in worksheets- nobody cared what we thought about anything.) Worst of all for me.... they were used to spending time with faculty- eating lunch, having them advise clubs and activities, going to them for help or just to talk about books or whatever.</p>
<p>Me? I had spent 4 years of HS avoiding any grownup contact whatsoever (and the teacher's didn't eat lunch in the student cafeteria anyway.... and unless you were flunking out or had been arrested nobody really noticed you). Everyone was trying to go to college- we still had a draft and nobody wanted to end up in Hanoi, but the school had a very wide range of students across the economic, intellectual, or whatever spectrum. </p>
<p>I quickly learned that sustained interactions with professors and TA's was the only way to go. Your son will be well-prepared to succeed academically wherever he is admitted- but he needs to be able to show up at office hours, raise his hand to speak in a seminar, ask the TA to review a paper with him to see where he went off-track, etc. This is what those prep school kids learn to do early on-- and if your son's style shows a willingness to do that then I wouldn't worry about him academically at all. It really isn't the stats- the kids who are successful in college are the ones with the work ethic and the willingness to put themselves "out there", and are able to ask for help when they are frustrated or overwhelmed.</p>
<p>During registration I remember standing on line to get my courses approved by my advisor. The kid in front of me (Groton? Andover? I don't remember) mentioned that he was going to get a waiver so he could skip the intro Euro History course and go straight into some more advanced class on the History of European Monarchy. I decided at that moment that the college had made a terrible mistake in admitting me- who would have the guts to try and skip a pre-requisite- after all, it said right in the course catalogue "Intro to European History required" next to every other history class. </p>
<p>Your son sounds great and you must be a wonderful parent!!!</p>
<p>I don't think it's a problem of reaching too high as long as the student has put time and energy into researching a couple of schools where he is very likely to be accepted. The lists that bother me are the ones where all of the schools are big reaches and then a safety school is thrown in as an afterthought. Especially when the reaches are such reaches, the student should be focused more the schools that are likely to accept him and looking to find the right ones that can offer him the challenges and environment he will like. He should not be focused on that pie in the sky as much as he is those likely admits. </p>
<p>Most schools are set up so that anyone they are going to accept has an array of courses that can be their starting points. I would not worry about being over his head. Where I have seen that happen most often are with the science and math courses where kids insist on jumping up a step instead of starting at square one when they have not had proper background.</p>
<p>already:</p>
<p>You don't give us any idea of your son's class rank at his high school. Assuming he's in the top two or three students, then I don't think Middlebury or Macalaster are wild reaches. Not from an admissions standpoint and certainly not from an ability to do the work standpoint.</p>
<p>Unless there is some really good stuff missing from your description (a URM hook, recruited athlete, etc.), Yale and Stanford are probably ridiculous reaches. You would want to be valedictorian of that high school and have a standout extracurricular story.</p>
<p>My daughter had the worst time turning down Macalester - she loved the people so much, felt she could just slide right into a super supportive group. If Mac hadn't been just 40 miles from home, it would have perfect.</p>
<p>Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Earlham have a really big international and peace focus? My cousin who went there, back in the day of the dinos, spent time both in Asia and Africa. Stereotyping off of him, the people should be very unpretentious and kind to others. Might be a good "match" school.</p>
<p>Don't worry about reaching too high - there's no harm in trying for a hard school. A lot of people (myself included) apply to schools that they didn't think they stood a chance of getting into - and some of them do. </p>
<p>And you certainly do <em>not</em> need to be valedictorian to get to a top school (and conversely, <em>being</em> valedictorian is no guarantee).</p>
<p>I asked a question similar to the OP's back in May. The thread got rather long. You can see it here: <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/511022-what-s-like-kid-attend-reach-school.html%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/511022-what-s-like-kid-attend-reach-school.html</a></p>
<p>Bottom line I came away with the feeling that reaches are doable. Not a breeze, but doable. If a kid is familiar with time management and heavy reading, anything is possible. </p>
<p>One comment that has stuck with me: "The hardest part about Ivies is getting in." </p>
<p>Now, my kid isn't Ivy material. But, that thread opened my mind up to the idea that maybe we don't have to rule out JHU, Vandy, Rice, etc...</p>
<p>Good luck.</p>
<p>wonderful post, Blossom!</p>
<p>If he is interested in international relief work I suggest that he look at some schools near Washington, D.C. or New York City. I just spent the day researching foundations that fund international projects for a non-profit and most of the major organizations are in New York or Washington. Then he can make connections for future jobs through internships, volunteer work, clubs, etc.</p>
<p>Check out Tufts.</p>
<p>Way more likely to get into Macalester than Tufts.</p>
<p>Macalester is a great school, and they may appreciate him!</p>