How good is UofM compared to other schools?

College Search & Selection
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<p>lesdiablesbleus, Engineering students at Michigan do not think they are better than LSA students, they merely think their major is tougher. And they are right in many instances. Chemistry, Mathematics and Physics majors would obviously disagree with that claim.</p>

<p>Ross students indeed think they are superior. Of course, with the exception of their job placement opportunities, there is nothing superior about them. One thing to remember is that Ross students make up 5% of the undergraduate student population (compared to Wharton, which makes up 25% of the undergradudate student population).</p>

<p>As for your LSAT stats, they are hard to read without context. If I recall, WUSTL has an average LSAT equal to Michigan’s. Clearly, student body strength is impossible to measure or predict.</p>

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Duke has state-of-the-art facilities by the way like the French Family Science Center that are a lot more contemporary than anything Michigan has to offer. Scientists and researchers have played a tremendous role in the Genome Project, the study of biomedical optics and the design of life-saving prosthetic implants.
<a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/08/science/08church.html[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/08/science/08church.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>The late Senator Ted Kennedy chose to get medical attention from the Duke University Hospital over places like Mass General and Presbyterian. In addition, Duke is one of the leaders of the “green revolution” that encourage smart living and prevents the unnecessary depletion of our planet’s natural resources.
<a href=“http://smarthome.duke.edu/[/url]”>http://smarthome.duke.edu/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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Indeed, Duke has a great medical school and a top rated hospital. I don’t think anyone will dispute that.</p>

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bluedog, I agree with most of the things in post #43 except for the above.</p>

<p>At Michigan, you can sign up to participate in research in the first term of your freshman year under the UROP (Undergraduate Research Opportunity Program). There are about 1,000 projects set aside for freshman/sophomore students for this purpose.</p>

<p>Michigan, Duke and eight other research universities were honored by NSF with its first-ever RAIRE Awards in 1997 for integrating research and undergraduate education. Michigan was cited for its UROP and Women in Science and Engineering programs. Duke was cited for </p>

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<p>“Indeed, Duke has a great medical school and a top rated hospital. I don’t think anyone will dispute that.” </p>

<p>So does Michigan…</p>

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<p>“The late Senator Ted Kennedy chose to get medical attention from the Duke University Hospital over places like Mass General and Presbyterian.”</p>

<p>lesdiablesbleus, you are certainly reaching. Since the late senator needed special care for a very serious condition (brain cancer), he wanted access to the best surgeons who could extend his life. Duke is also closer to Washington, DC than other top-ranked medical centers (e.g., Harvard, Yale, Michigan, etc). His decision to seek care at Duke does not imply the other medical centers have weaker programs.</p>

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<p>^^…and he still died. Perhaps if he went to a truly superior hospital he still might be alive. Now doesn’t that sound as ridiculous as some of the previously mentioned comments?</p>

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<p>As far as I’m concerned, both Duke and Michigan are excellent, though of course they have different strengths.</p>

<p>For PhD production, there is abundant data available. For example:
[nsf.gov</a> - SRS Baccalaureate Origins of S&E Doctorate Recipients - US National Science Foundation (NSF)](<a href=“http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf08311/]nsf.gov”>http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf08311/)</p>

<p>In absolute numbers, Michigan was the #3 producer of natural sciences, social and behavioral sciences, and engineering PhDs in the decade from 1996-2007. Of course, it’s a very large school. On a per capita basis, it was not among the top 50. However, this is not really one of Duke’s strengths, either. It ranked below many schools generally considered its peers, at 30th, just above Beloit College and just below Amherst and Macalester.</p>

<p>For PhD production across all fields, for the decade 1995-2004, Michigan was not in the top 40 on a per capita basis. Duke ranked 36th, just below Hendrix College. Liberal arts colleges tend to do very well by this metric; some very respected universities don’t make the top-N charts at all.
Source: <a href=“http://www.swarthmore.edu/Documents/administration/ir/baccorsum1995-2004.pdf[/url]”>http://www.swarthmore.edu/Documents/administration/ir/baccorsum1995-2004.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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“Per capita” is not a fair comparison as it tends to be biased against large universities offering a broad curriculum. For example, at Michigan, only 7% of the total bachelor degrees awarded are in physical/biological sciences … compared to 18% at Grinnell, 14% at Williams, 12% at Princeton and 13% at Duke.</p>

<p>“Per capita” would be more meaningful if it is changed to “per science degrees awarded”.</p>

<p>p.s. Again, the above study has nothing to do with placement into TOP PhD programs. It counts the same whether you get your PhD at Harvard or at a 4th tier university.</p>

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Congrats, you are a finalist for the award for the silliest thing said in this thread. Given certain other posters in this thread, that’s pretty difficult.</p>

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I did, and neither you nor lesdia is quite correct here. Graduate programs care about neither department strength nor student body strength. They care about applicant strength - after all, they’re admitting neither that student’s professors nor his host of peers.</p>

<p>For all intents and purposes, that includes good grades (3.30+ overall, 3.50+ in your major), decent GRE scores, strong language preparation if applicable, an excellent writing sample, an excellent personal statement, excellent letters of recommendation, decent research background, and a good fit with at least one and preferably two faculty members. At the interview stage, having a fair share of charisma doesn’t hurt. Attending a top university primarily helps with two things – LORs and research. As you yourself noted, research is readily available at many universities, and most of the top universities are packed with top faculty who frequently hop from one to the next. </p>

<p>Incidentally, I got admitted to all of the PhD programs to which I applied (including UM), despite Duke not having a specific program in my area of study, and despite strong applicants from other schools with excellent departments, some of whom had MAs (all of whom were lovely people). I can only imagine would a Michigan degree could’ve done - skipped me straight to the post-doc process, perhaps. ;)</p>

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Well, one can’t make assumptions here. A better statement would’ve been getting your PhD at Harvard or a 4th tier program. I’ve admittedly made similar misstatements in the past. While Harvard is stronger in 99.9% of areas, it is not universally so, as I know quite well. I chose a 4th tier university over all of my other options, which included several major research universities and a couple Ivies. Chicago is the only university in the entire western hemisphere with a program as strong as mine, but it wasn’t as good a fit, and the funding wasn’t as satisfactory given the cost of living.</p>

<p>That said, I strongly agree with your basic point, which is why I too tend to dismiss the PhD production lists as bunk, at least for a a measure of quality of PhD placement. It’s much more difficult to send two applicant to art history at Berkeley than five or six to art history at, say, U Nebraska.</p>

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Again, the study did not differentiate between a PhD from a TOP ranked program and that from a last ranked program. So it is not a measure of “placement into TOP PhD programs”.</p>

<p>Since we have so much interest in this study, here are a list of top 20 schools missing from the “Top Colleges That Produce Science PhD’s” (per capita basis):
4. University of Pennsylvania
8. Columbia University
12. Northwestern University
12. Washington University in St. Louis
17. Emory University
17. Vanderbilt University
20. Notre Dame</p>

<p>Penn didn’t make the cut despite being #26 on the overall list. Northwestern, Columbia and Notre Dame were also on the top 50 list in terms of absolute numbers (victims of the per capita bias?).</p>

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<p>The denominator is kids who want to pursue science PhDs, not kids as a whole.</p>

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<p>um ok. I think my question was answered a long time ago…</p>

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<p>Inasmuch as I think most of the debate in this thread was highly predictable (and pointless,) I have to say that I enjoyed reading the posts of the OP. From the few things he said, I really believe he won’t have any problem making the right choice. I also think that he will be an asset to Michigan or to any other school. </p>

<p>Realistic, smart, and humble. That is a pretty darn good combination!</p>

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<p>Oh, Lesdiablesbleus, aren’t you overlooking a few issues when speaking of “fractured student body” and “sense of community” and offering Duke as an example with such … authority? </p>

<p>Is Duke really a shining example of what town-gown relations should be?<br>
Have freshman dorms been relocated in the past years to be somehow integrated?</p>

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<p>Plenty of things not perfect about Penn – this is not one of them.</p>

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<p>Thanks. But I’m a she (just for any future reference).</p>

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Um xiggi, the OP called Michigan his “safety” so I don’t think you could call him/her humble, smart or realistic at all. Even I didn’t have the audacity to call Michigan my safety school during the admissions process; that status is reserved for schools like GVSU, Michigan State and Indiana unless the individual in question has awe-inspiring extracurriculars.</p>

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Oh xiggi, the freshman-only East Campus is an ASSET for the unification of the student body at Duke since all the first years get to live, eat, study, socialize and bond with their class. The unity of the freshman living experience here is the reason that you see friendships flourish for 4 years despite Greek/SLG affiliation.</p>

<p>Duke-Durham relations have gotten markedly better since the 2006 Lacrosse case though but the powerful sense of community at Duke I’m referring to is the interaction between students.</p>

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Oh yeah, so the business school kids don’t think they are superior to their CAS brethren and feel the need to tack on the “Wharton” name every time they refer to their alma mater instead of just saying “Penn”? The school collectively doesn’t look down upon the Nursing students at all? Hogwash!</p>

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<p>Lesdiablesbleus, feel free to focus on the “safety” issue all you want. I do not know much about the circumstances in Michigan, but I know that there are plenty of students who could call a strong state school such as UT-Austin a … safety. Is it possible that the OP has plenty of reasons to believe that her ACT or GPA places her in a category of students that are usually and routinely accepted at Umich. Is it possible that she believes that shw could get a quick reply to the non restructive Early Action, and know before Thanksgiving? Is it possible that she anticipates to be rated HA on UMich scoring sheet?</p>

<p>Fwiw, safety does always mean … guaranteed admission. In the meantime, I thought that the OP was realistic and humble! As I said, I enjoyed reading her posts, and especially her matter-of-fact replies. Sorry if that bothered you! </p>

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<p>Sorry dude, but you’re the one who brought up “fractured student body!” </p>

<p>If I understand you well, the first year isolation will help **freshmen **socialize and bond with their class and help 4 years friendships flourish. Does that not fracture the student body into well defined groups of 25% of the student body … from the start? Do freshmen ever interact with seniors in a meaningful way? Do sophomores return to the freshman islands after getting one season under their belt, or do they stick with their class?</p>

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<p>You said that the business and engineering students at Penn thought themselves superior and looked down upon their peers in the other schools. While there may be individuals that do that, it is not a wide spread phenomenon – especially not among the engineering students. Sorry, it just isn’t the case. Whartonites are a different breed, to be sure. But I don’t think their “need” to mention Wharton is because they feel so superior – they are rightly proud of their top rate school. The truth is that the undergrads at all of Penn’s schools live together and party together. There is no rift that affects socializing or creates any kind of a “fractured” student body.</p>