How good is UofM compared to other schools?

[lesdiablesbleus]

<p>

@eagertolearn

I agree with rjkofnovi. It’s my safety, but that doesn’t mean it’s not good. And honestly lesdiablesbleus, I don’t rank duke much higher than UofM at all. In fact, since UofM is in ann arbor and Duke is in, what, durham?, I think the UofM community far outshines the one at Duke. That said, everyone’s entitled to their own opinion, but the main purpose of this thread was to compare UofM to other major private universities out there, not just Duke.

UofM has Ann Arbor which is a good college town but Duke has one of the most beautiful campuses in the country. It’s also located in close proximity to Chapel Hill, another great college town, so you can get the best of both worlds if you want to.</p>

<p>The UofM community isn’t any more or less lively and spirited than Duke’s community. Both schools have good Greek life, tailgates, campus events, traditions, sports atmospheres(football for Michigan and basketball for Duke), etc. etc. Both schools are much better than the Ivy League with regards to social atmosphere with the caveat that Duke is as prestigious as the Ivies.</p>

[noimagination]

<p>

No employer hires and no PhD program selects college grads based on the strength of the department they majored in during undergrad, but rather they look at the overall quality of the school and/or the strength of the student body.

I want to see evidence to support this claim.</p>

[bluedog]

<p>Fact: Michigan is a very solid academic institution and a great deal for those in-state.</p>

<p>Fact: The other schools you listed in your OP are also great and offer a bit of a different experience.</p>

<p>So, it depends what you’re looking for, but UM grads go on to do great things and the top students at Michigan are not at a serious disadvantage than the students from those other schools at getting good jobs, into prestigious grad programs, etc. Certainly, as a public institution, Michigan has a different mission to serve the citizens of the state of Michigan. Clearly, it admits more in-state applicants with perhaps not the greatest test scores, etc. that don’t compare to the privates you mentioned. But that doesn’t make it intrinsically inferior. </p>

<p>Frankly, I’d wait for financial aid packages. A sibling of mine went to Michigan and got ZERO aid (except loans) OOS. I was offered a (small) merit scholarship to Michigan and Duke ended up being cheaper still after financial aid. So, just apply RD and see what happens. But being in-state, Michigan is a great deal. I was going to choose Michigan over Columbia (if price was comparable and I didn’t get into Duke) and people thought I was strange…but just seemed like a better fit to me. Ann Arbor is awesome and the sports/class pride really appealed to me (similar to sports/pride I saw at Duke).</p>

<p>In any event, it’s a wise choice to have a financial safety and you won’t be sacrificing much going to UMich. However, I do think there is something to be said with trying something different and going out of your comfort zone, so if UMich seems too “familiar” or just doesn’t excite you like the other schools, then perhaps a different place would be a better fit. I think there is definitely something to be said for going to a place that is out of your comfort zone and challenging you. Again, Michigan could certainly do this as well - I just don’t know as it depends on your individual circumstances.</p>

<p>rjkofnovi, to answer you question about who would choose Duke engineering over Michigan engineering. (Which I did! Although admittedly it was for BME). While Michigan engineering is certainly a juggernaut and a great program, I’d say there are a few reasons why somebody would choose Duke engineering over Michigan. 1.) BME, Duke is tough to beat. 2.) Financial aid better. 3.) Interesting in management consulting/finance. 1/2 of MEs at Duke, for example, go into finance/consulting. M/B/B (and the top banks) recruit in much larger numbers at Duke than UMich, so if that’s your ultimate goal, then Duke might be a better place. 3.) Want a smaller more intimate school where 90% of the undergrads do research. There is TONS of research going on at Umich engineering, don’t get me wrong, but Duke engineering is a more intimate setting with a smaller number of students of whom all are pretty much assured of doing research. At UMich, if you are a solid student who takes iniative, you can get a research position, but students at or near the bottom of the class don’t get opportunities. At Duke, pretty much everybody does. Nobody thinks they’re going to be “below average,” but somebody has to be, and “below average” at Duke engineering is still pretty good (especially after 30% of the engineering school transfers out). Obviously, somebody might choose Duke engineering over UMich for more generic reasons like it’s a better fit, better weather, etc. Again, I really love Michigan and have nothing bad to say about it. Those are just some reasons why somebody might logically choose Duke over Michigan even if they plan on studying engineering.</p>

[sefago]

<p>

No employer hires and no PhD program selects college grads based on the strength of the department they majored in during undergrad, but rather they look at the overall quality of the school and/or the strength of the student body. There are more engineering companies that recruit at Duke than there are students interested in those jobs.

</p>

<p>I agree. Dartmouth and Brown dont have many top 10 departments if any, but please indicate where they are lacking in getting their students to the ebst graduate schools</p>

[Alexandre]

<p>Some lucid points made by Bluedog. At any rate, this debate is pointless. The OP has expressed interest in pursuing Musical performance (the Flute I believe) while in college. Michigan has one of the top 5 peformance-based Music program and one of the top 10 Flute instructor in the country in Amy Porter. I cannot imagine a more ideal undergraduate setting given the OP’s interests. </p>

<p>This said, I agree that the OP should at least apply to a couple of other elite universities. In the event they provide a good aid package, a decision can actually be made.</p>

[lesdiablesbleus]

<p>

@eagertolearn

I think the UofM community far outshines the one at Duke.

The problem with schools like Michigan and Penn is that students in the Business and Engineering schools think they are superior to regular Arts & Science kids and downright look down upon any of their peers in specialty schools like Nursing, Architecture and Kinesiology. This creates a rather fractured student body actually that is placed in a heirarchy by the perceived strength of the students’ educational course of study, which in fact damages the “sense of community” at the school.</p>

<p>I will never forget that day during my freshman writing class at Duke when I was making small talk with my professor after class and casually asked her where she went to college.</p>

<p>She: I went to UPenn.
Me: Oh cool, what did you study there?
She: I was a Spanish and Philosophy double major at the College; I wasn’t in Wharton or anything haha.</p>

<p>The fact that such an accomplished and brilliant woman is still so insecure about her undergraduate education at one of the nation’s premier liberal arts schools speaks volumes about the level of stratification that exists among the various specialty schools at Penn.</p>

<p>I agree that the “Michigan Community” is much more unified than its Penn counterpart due to the strong athletic tradition of the university, but it simply can’t match the community feel that exists at Duke, where no one looks down upon you based on what you study. At Duke. History and Political Science majors become management consultants and investment bankers at essentially the same rate as Economics majors so you are really free to study what you want at the school without fear of criticism from peers.</p>

<p>Duke does have an Engineering school but it’s not that highly ranked, which creates an odd sense of unity between engineers and liberal arts students here that is very rarely found in American universities. Arts & Science kids respect the engineers because of their rigorous curriculum and strong work ethic, while engineers don’t turn their noses up at the liberal arts students since the Trinity College of Arts & Sciences is what makes Duke famous and is the crown jewel of the university even over any of the professional/graduate programs perhaps besides the Med School.</p>

<p>If you go to Duke, you will be able to simply leave it at that when explaining your educational background to future acquaintances instead of having to resort to saying I went to “Wharton” or “Ross” or was an “engineer at Michigan” or was in the “M&T program at Penn”. The unifying power of the athletic tradition and the collaborative spirit at Duke far outweighs any stratifying force that fractures the student body bases on chosen areas of study.</p>

<p>If you want to talk about Duke-Durham relations, then that might be a slightly different story hehe…</p>

[m4dskillz07]

<p>"Please save yourself the embarrassment and never mention this pedestrian state school in the same breath as an elite private school like Duke ever again. "</p>

<p>this may be the worst comment ihave ever read on CC. Just because you’re a typical cocky Dukey gives you no right to say that. UMich and Duke are peers.</p>

[noimagination]

<p>I find the value framework implicit in post #46 extremely telling. The idea that mutual respect is contingent on the rate at which students in different fields of study become IBankers says a great deal about the character of the person who espouses such values.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

REPRESENTATION AT PRIVATE EQUITY FIRMS

</p>

<p>Lesdiablesbleues, when will you ever learn? Placing into private equity firms doesn’t make a college “great.” A college can be great even if no private equity firm ever steps foot onto the campus to recruit. Please don’t confuse your eagerness to make money and try to become elite through your checkbook with what constitutes a quality education.</p>

<p>

The problem with schools like Michigan and Penn is that students in the Business and Engineering schools think they are superior to regular Arts & Science kids and downright look down upon any of their peers in specialty schools like Nursing, Architecture and Kinesiology.

</p>

<p>Actually, you’re the kind who would look down on fellow students who were in nursing, architecture, kinesiology, hotel management, speech pathology, agriculture, and so forth. The problem with <em>you</em> is that you don’t have it in you to say “there are a lot of great universities in this country – and Michigan is among them” – but that your ego is wrapped up on insisting that Duke is just one hair-breadths away from HYPSM and ensuring that everyone knows just what their rank in the world is. It reflects very, very poorly upon you.</p>

<p>Here’s a little piece of advice. The person who graciously says “there are a lot of great universities – the differences here are about personal fit and preference” will get a lot farther in the world than the person who insists upon “ranking” them all. Guess what? No one pays attention after this phase of your life is over. No one. The smart kid from Duke and the smart kid from Michigan will all do well. Life is not a zero-sum game. There are plenty of opportunities to go around for everybody.</p>

<p>

She: I went to UPenn.
Me: Oh cool, what did you study there?
She: I was a Spanish and Philosophy double major at the College; I wasn’t in Wharton or anything haha.</p>

<p>The fact that such an accomplished and brilliant woman is still so insecure about her undergraduate education at one of the nation’s premier liberal arts schools speaks volumes about the level of stratification that exists among the various specialty schools at Penn.

</p>

<p>Perhaps you don’t know how to interact with / read people. Nothing in her comment said “insecure.” She merely answered the question she’d been asked. For you to conclude that therefore all the people at Penn must be stratified and judge one another is pretty unbelievable.</p>

<p>

but it simply can’t match the community feel that exists at Duke, where no one looks down upon you based on what you study.

</p>

<p>You look down on other people based on what university they go to; I can just imagine what you’d be like if you ran across a student who went to, oh, I don’t know, U of Kansas or something. What’s the essential difference between a student who looks down on another student because of the field he studies and a student who looks down on another student because his school isn’t as “good”? Both are pretty much losers.</p>

[tenisghs]

<p>“The problem with schools like Michigan and Penn is that students in the Business and Engineering schools think they are superior to regular Arts & Science kids and downright look down upon any of their peers in specialty schools like Nursing, Architecture and Kinesiology. This creates a rather fractured student body actually that is placed in a heirarchy by the perceived strength of the students’ educational course of study, which in fact damages the “sense of community” at the school.”</p>

<p>“She: I was a Spanish and Philosophy double major at the College; I wasn’t in Wharton or anything haha.”</p>

<p>Lesdiablesbleues, what is your source for this ridiculous statement? I have never heard of this behavior at Michigan (and other similar schools, e.g. Cornell, Northwestern, etc). I actually prefer schools with specialty programs because all students will have a chance to find and pursue their niche. It also seems you have a reading comprehension problem. You ASSUME that she considers herself insecure to other Penn students. Unless she explicitly states so, you have no right to twist her comments.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

If you go to Duke, you will be able to simply leave it at that when explaining your educational background to future acquaintances instead of having to resort to saying I went to “Wharton” or “Ross” or was an “engineer at Michigan” or was in the “M&T program at Penn”.

</p>

<p>No one is “resorting” to anything by saying the name of a given program. If I met another NU alum and we had established we both went there, I might say that I was in WCAS (Weinberg College of Arts & Sciences) – that’s lingo that another NU person would understand, and that person might respond by saying she was in Tech, or Speech, or Medill, or whatever. Do you think journalism majors at NU who say that they are in Medill are hiding their affiliation with NU because they are embarrassed? LOL.</p>

[Coolbrezze]

<p>

Hey so I was thinking of applying to JHU, Duke, WashU, Dartmouth, Upenn, but the problem with these schools is that they are all out of state (I live in Michigan) so the tuition is kind of crazy ridiculous. I was wondering how good UofM (Ann Arbor) is compared to these schools. Everybody in my school goes to UofM so I kind of wanted to be diffrent and go somewhere else for once. But the other schools are matches/reaches for me and they’re super expensive so I’m a little worried…

JHU, Duke, WashU, Dartmouth, and Upenn are all fantastic options. Since you live in the state of Michigan if not admitted into your top choices you should also look at MSU, best public university within the state. Good luck.</p>

[Hattrickty9]

<p>“MSU, best public university within the state”</p>

<p>I’ve got to stop taking this bait. This is the craziest thing I have ever heard. Seriously. Get help.</p>

[tenisghs]

<p>^ Do not listen to Coolbrezze. He is an anti-Michigan ■■■■■. He took his rejection from Michigan too seriously.</p>

[Sparkeye7]

<p>^^ well… I truly believe MSU is ‘one of’ the best public universities in Michigan/ ;p</p>

<p>As a Briggs (LBC) alumnus, I can say that at MSU, subjects in Primary / Secondary education, Packaging, Study abroad, Nuclear physics, Vetarinary, Primary Care and Osteopathic Medicine are probably 2nd-to-none in the state of Michigan.</p>

<p>State’s programs in Primary & Secondary education rank 1st in the nation for the 16th year in a row!! Source: [Rankings</a> and Recognitions | Michigan State University](<a href=“http://www.msu.edu/about/rankings-and-recognitions/index.html]Rankings”>http://www.msu.edu/about/rankings-and-recognitions/index.html)</p>

<p>NSCL/FRIB - for those Einstein wannabe, the only facility that could rival CERN once completed!! :D</p>

<p>[Nuclear</a> - Physics - Graduate Schools - Education - US News and World Report](<a href=“http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-physics-schools/nuclear-science]Nuclear”>http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-physics-schools/nuclear-science)</p>

<p>Also, Supply-Chain Management at MSU(Broad) is 2nd to MIT(Sloan)</p>

<p>[Supply</a> Chain / Logistics - Best Business Schools - Graduate Schools - Education - US News and World Report](<a href=“http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-business-schools/logistics]Supply”>http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-business-schools/logistics)</p>

<p>With that said, there is no doubt in my mind that overall, UofM IS the best public university in the state of Michigan; however, when it comes to the best students produced, remains debatable. Go Green!! ;p</p>

[GoBlue81]

<p>

#32.Please save yourself the embarrassment and never mention this pedestrian state school in the same breath as an elite private school like Duke ever again.

<rank>…<uofm>…<duke>
Music Perf… top 5 … not ranked
Engineering… 7 … 26
Math … 9 … 21
Comp Sci … 13 … 20
Bio Sci … 15 … 12
Chemistry … 16 … 43
Physics … 13 … 29
Earth Sci … 5 … 34
Economics … 12 … 19
English … 13 … 10
History … 7 … 14
Political Sci … 4 … 9
Public Affairs . 7 … 10
Psychology … 3 … 23
Sociology … 3 … 14
Education … 14 … NA
Nursing … 5 … 15
Pharmacy … 5 … NA
Public Health… 5 … NA
Social Work … 2 … NA</duke></uofm></rank></p>

<p>Almost all of Duke’s departments are inferior to Michigan’s, some by a large margin. Yeah, please do not mention the two schools in the same breath ever again.</p>

[lesdiablesbleus]

<p>

@GoBlue81

<rank>…<uofm>…<duke>
Music Perf… top 5 … not ranked
Engineering… 7 … 26
Math … 9 … 21
Comp Sci … 13 … 20
Bio Sci … 15 … 12
Chemistry … 16 … 43
Physics … 13 … 29
Earth Sci … 5 … 34
Economics … 12 … 19
English … 13 … 10
History … 7 … 14
Political Sci … 4 … 9
Public Affairs . 7 … 10
Psychology … 3 … 23
Sociology … 3 … 14
Education … 14 … NA
Nursing … 5 … 15
Pharmacy … 5 … NA
Public Health… 5 … NA
Social Work … 2 … NA</duke></uofm></rank></p>

<p>Almost all of Duke’s departments are inferior to Michigan’s, some by a large margin. Yeah, please do not mention the two schools in the same breath ever again.

</p>

<p>Bringing up graduate school rankings again are we? With all these great departments in hand, it’s a wonder that UofM graduates have such poor placement into top PhD programs, Wall Street, the top law schools and the top med schools in comparison to elite private schools. Oh yeah, I forgot: IT’S THE STRENGTH OF THE STUDENTS THEMSELVES AND THE QUALITY OF THE UNDERGRADUATE INSTRUCTION AT THE UNIVERSITY that determines the postgraduate success of the student body. Me thinks Michigan professors are too busy doing research rather than tending to their undergrads like at Dartmouth and Duke.</p>

<p>This ranking is seriously flawed from an undergraduate perspective. UofM Economics, for instance, doesn’t even require students to take Econometrics or Multivariable Calculus as part of the major requirements, which is somewhat pitiful. The Econ department at every elite private school requires these two courses as well as an advanced statistics class.</p>

<p>

@noimagination

this may be the worst comment ihave ever read on CC. Just because you’re a typical cocky Dukey gives you no right to say that. UMich and Duke are peers.

You still think Duke and Michigan are on the same level? Your username is misleading then because you seem to have quite the active imagination.</p>

<p>Now for another fun statistic…</p>

<p>AVERAGE LSAT SCORE BY UNDERGRADUATE INSTITUTION
<em>MICHIGAN</em> 158
Brandeis 158
St. John’s College (NOT St. John’s University) 158
UDallas 158
Georgia Tech 158
Vanderbilt 159
Bryn Mawr College 159
BYU 159
Colby College 159
Emory 159
Berkeley 159
Johns Hopkins 159
William & Mary 160
Georgetown 161
Haverford College 161
Washington & Lee 161
Northwestern 161
Notre Dame 161
U Chicago 162
Rice 162
Claremont McKenna 162
Columbia 163
Dartmouth 163
<em>DUKE</em> 163
UPenn 163
MIT 163
Stanford 164
Pomona College 164
Yale 165
Harvard 166</p>

<p>Source: LSAC</p>

<p>Michigan is an ok school, but Duke is elite.</p>

[noimagination]

<p>^ Don’t misquote me. That was m4dskillz07. I wrote post #48, which you’ve conveniently ignored so far.</p>

[Hattrickty9]

<p>lesdiablesbleus,</p>

<p>are you actually serious with these rants? at first I thought this was a joke.</p>

[GoBlue81]

<p>

Bringing up graduate school rankings again are we?

It clearly shows that Michigan has more established faculty (leaders in their own fields), better facilities and more advanced research across the board.</p>

<p>

no PhD program selects college grads based on the strength of the department they majored in during undergrad, but rather they look at the overall quality of the school and/or the strength of the student body.

You have no clue what you are talking about here. Did you even apply to any PhD program?</p>

<p>

it’s a wonder that UofM graduates have such poor placement into top PhD programs … in comparison to elite private schools.

Where is your proof? On the contrary, Michigan grads place very well into top PhD programs, certainly better than Duke. Btw, Michigan has top 10 programs almost across the board (with quite a few in the top 5). Surely you don’t think Michigan would prefer Duke grads over their own, especially in areas where Duke is lowly ranked.</p>

<p>If you are referring to your own link on “Top 50 Colleges That Produce Science PhD’s”. Note that it doesn’t say “TOP Science PhD’s”. For all we know, most of the Dukies might have earned their science PhD’s from 30th-40th ranked programs like Duke (see, I can speculate too).</p>

<p>Btw, that study is biased as the PhD numbers were nomalized by the number of bachelor degrees granted (instead of science degrees granted). This penalizes schools like Michigan that offer a much broader curriculum.</p>