<p>The problem I see with things such as Parent Education and Income -- the polar opposites are always favored. Certainly, children of the Trustees of the College may be admitted as a developmental admit, and children whose parents never went to college and barely graduated from high school -- has the first generation tip factor (although, I don't think as much as being a child of the Board of Trustees).</p>
<p>Similarly, if a student is able to pay for a full ride, that's good -- if the school's non-need blind. However, if the school is need blind, and the school is looking forward to taking in some lower-income students for the purposes of financial diversification, then that may be benficial, as well.</p>
<p>Of course, kids whose parents went to college but didn't graduate there and also kids whose parents are middle class are effectively, well, you know.</p>
<p>And as for the one thing that this kid needs to be accepted: he saved the Star Trek Franchise. :)</p>
<p>Some replies related to Applicant's activities during the summers. Have most of you who have been to college interviews been asked specifically what you did during your summers? What if applicant had spent his summers working to support his poor family?</p>
<p>Some applications ask specifically (as a separate question) what you have done in the summer. I remember (between my two kids' applications) this question specifically on the Kenyon (last year) and Princeton (three years ago)</p>
<p>I looked again at the Common</a> Application site, and it appears that on the Common Application questions about summer activities come up incidentally in asking about extracurricular activities ("including summer") and work experience ("including summer").</p>
<p>It's true about the common app, but the ones I mentioned asked SPECIFICALLY about "last summer" or a "recent summer". Working to support a poor family would certainly be a valid topic to write about.</p>
<p>So during the summer, while doing the Great Skunk Rescue, the Applicant ran a rehabilitation camp for said skunks. Much money was raised for tomato(e) juice and dawn.</p>
<p>As well, applicant's work with as a bagpipe instructor to make money for his family lasted two months, but was cut short due to neighborhood complaints. So applicant took up the harmonica.</p>
<p>And now I want to respond more to the serious replies in this thread. </p>
<p>Post #8 asks if Applicant is male or female. Post #16 provides some very helpful examples of various colleges where either being male or being female might be a "tip" factor in admissions. Now of course I set up my hypothetical so that Applicant has a really strong academic record, and a really strong extracurricular record. Assuming Applicant were a male, applying to a school hoping to attract female matriculants, wouldn't Applicant still have an awfully good chance at admission? After all, if Famous School is looking for lots of female students, it can still admit female applicants to the hundreds of other places in its entering class, even if it admits male Applicant, right? Or if Applicant is female, couldn't famous school fill out its desired number of male matriculants from among the remaining high school students who are applying that year? How much does a tip factor matter if the main academic and EC factors are already strong?</p>
<p>tokenadult: I asked about whether the Applicant was male or female, not thinking so much about whether a school was hoping to attract females or males, presumably to equalize any gender bias--but rather--I believe this Applicant would be more appealing to any school if she was female. I thought this, because the Applicant is all-American in some sport and also because it appears the Applicant leans towards science and math. If I'm remembering that correctly, I still think those attributes are somewhat rarer in a female Applicant (sad to say); therefore, the female Applicant would be far more appealing and less like every other 1600 science or math male Applicant they see. Also, is this hypothetical Applicant Caucasian? Did you say? I should go back and read Post #16.</p>
<p>Hi, Jack, good to see you posting in the thread again (post #29). I tried to be as vague as possible about whether Applicant is male or female, and about Applicant's ethnic heritage. I intentionally omitted the gender and ethnic group lines from the usual stats chart format. I see that in post #23 I used the pronoun "his" to refer to Applicant, but that should be taken as my habitual usage of the default third-person pronoun in English (at least in standard Chinese, and in other languages I speak, third-person singular pronouns aren't marked for gender :) ) and not as a sign that I have accurate information about whether Applicant is male or female. </p>
<p>I also tried to be a little vague about the field(s) in which Applicant had extracurricular accomplisments, although I myself am not aware of any fields but mathematics, computer science, and various physical sciences that have "olympiad"-style competitions. So it is fair to say that Applicant has an unusual level of science achievement among college applicants. </p>
<p>There does seem to be a persistent current belief that it is a little harder at the top of the selectivity rankings of research universities to gain admission as a male applicant than as a female applicant. But there are still plenty of males accepted each year at all of the top research universities, so some of those applicants are successful even though they are known to be male. I have both sons (three) and a daughter, so I try to be even-handed in how I deal with this issue, which I guess will come up four times for me in real life. (No, I do NOT expect any of my own children to be like the hypothetical example of Applicant. I don't even know if any of my children will be interested in applying anywhere out of state for college.) </p>
<p>Overall, my curiosity in this thread extends to the anxiety some real-world applicants feel about their ethnic heritage or sex being taken to their disadvantage in the admissions process. Isn't there plenty of room for every which kind of person? Even if no one can reach the heights of achievement indicated for my purely hypothetical Applicant, can't many real-world applicants find a mark of distinction based on their own efforts that will help them fit into an outstanding school that meets their needs? </p>
<p>Happy Mothers Day to all the moms reading this thread. Your children owe you a big thank you today.</p>
<p>OK, let's try this. Let's keep ethnicity and gender as unknowns and tinker with other aspects of this student's application profile. </p>
<p>Using the profile laid out in the OP, how low could this student's GPA and rank get before the application was negatively impacted?</p>
<p>Using the profile laid out in the OP (with the 4.0 and #1 rank), if the various SAT's were in the 780 range, would that make any difference? How much lower could they get?</p>
<p>And just for fun, let's say the student drops one of the elite science/math activities right after 10th grade. Would that make any difference, given the strength of the applicant in general?</p>
<p>Nothing is missing from this applicants file. I would accept and start courting him immediately to try to beat out the competition!</p>
<p>Your hypothetical applicant wouldnt need any other tip factors to get into most colleges, even the most selective ones. He is stellar academically; his academic ECs appear to be very strong; he is an athlete; he is an accomplished musician; and a legacy to boot (I cant imagine that the need for financial aid will hurt his chances.) In my very limited experience, that type of kid gets in anywhere he applies. Colleges will compete for this rare breed of kid, often offering lots and lots of money, research opportunities and the like. I just saw this happen, so I have to believe that it happens more often than we might think. </p>
<p>The thing is that most applicants are not as perfect as your hypothetical. There are lots of great kids out there with amazing stats that lack that wow factor of your candidate. There are even more kids out there that are great, but not great enough. The latter are the ones that make college admissions interesting. For the few stars, the anxiety is misplaced. </p>
<p>I agree with Speckledegg. The interesting question is what would happen to your candidate if we started taking out some of his accomplishments. What would be the tipping point that would change him from a star to just a great candidate?</p>
<p>tokenadult: Hi, and thanks for the post. I did think it was notable that you omitted the ethnic heritage and gender of your Applicant. And although I agree with your question and sentiment.. "...can't many real-world applicants find a mark of distinction based on their own efforts that will help them fit into an outstanding school that meets their needs..." I think the answer is yes. Absolutely. However, based on what one reads on the CC boards, the "mark of distinction" and fitting into "an outstanding school" are all relative. I think this hypothetical Applicant could gain admission to a number of "outstanding schools" and most likely be rewarded with equally outstanding scholarships....but I suspect this Applicant and his/her parents will believe that half those schools and scholarships aren't "good enough." So the angst begins... (All this speculation, again, is based on what I read on these boards) :)</p>
<p>Speckledegg: I suspect this Applicant could maintain everything on his resume, drop the SAT to 1450, and still be just as desirable to any "oustanding school."</p>
<p>Yes, that would be very interesting. Bring it on. Here is one idea I will throw into the discussion: there is a reputation that a few colleges choose mostly valedictorians, by policy. (I remember that years ago Jerry Falwell's Liberty University offered a full-ride scholarship to any high school valedictorian that matriculated there, but of course I am speaking of other colleges, the kind of colleges we usually talk about here on CC.) I actually rather doubt that most colleges have an explicit policy of "Let's get all the valedictorians we can," because high schools vary so much that to be a valedictorian, alone, doesn't have much prediction value in showing who will thrive in college. BUT, the one thing being a valedictorian shows is top rank in the local context of one high school. If a school's admission policy is, "Let's take the strongest applicants we can, while picking up good diversity and building a balanced class," then the salutatorian and lower-ranked (by GPA) applicants from each high school are at risk of having their schools' valedictorians applying to the same college, while being otherwise undistinguishable on most other admission criteria. They would be outranked, but not by much at all, only in comparison to one other applicant. </p>
<p>My "gut reaction" is that a truly NATIONAL-LEVEL EC, which is rare, can trump several class-rank positions, and can trump 60 or 70 points on the "old" SAT and also trump most "tip" factors. If so, that national EC would put an applicant "ahead" of tens of thousands of other college applicants worldwide. But maybe I'm full of baloney, so I invite further discussion. </p>
<p>Happy Mother's Day to justanothermom (who ISN'T "just another mom" on this day for celebrating mothers) and to all of the other moms visiting the forum today.</p>
<p>Tokenadult, Interesting candidate you have. Im so new to this admissions process that I am reluctant to give my opinion but I think your candidate is too perfect. I think most adults are uncomfortable with the idea of the perfect student the problem your candidate may have is his/her unseen letters of recommendation. I work for a small university in their student health department. We have students working in the department as part of a work-study program (1/2 of the salary is paid by our department and 1/2 is paid by the university). It is interesting to read the letters of recommendation for these students. Many are written in a manner that makes it clear the student applicant is highly intelligent but lacks true substance. We now interview each applicant and write an interview summary before we read their job applications and rec letters. In 90% of the time our post interview summaries match the rec letters assessment of the student. My conclusion is that the persona of the extremely bright, overly driven, grade obsessed teen is often viewed negatively by adults.</p>
<p>I have been reading this thread with amusement (love all the skunk references) and with sharp interest in the "how low can he/she go" hypotheses. My question...what exactly do you define as a National level EC? In athletics or science, this is a bit more obvious (Olympic level athlete, #1 goalie, Westinghouse award winner, etc.). But do you have to be this high a level to be a "national" EC? What about the arts? Political activities?</p>
<p>And so what happened to the family wealth?? Did your parents open a Swiss account to hide your assets, or did they have to pay a huge settlement due to litigation or what? </p>
<p>You forgot one thing on your "perfect list". Don't you have a patent on something? If so, I think that will cinch your admission to Famous School.</p>
<p>Thanks for the kind words and happy wishes. </p>
<p>
[quote]
My "gut reaction" is that a truly NATIONAL-LEVEL EC, which is rare, can trump several class-rank positions, and can trump 60 or 70 points on the "old" SAT and also trump most "tip" factors. If so, that national EC would put an applicant "ahead" of tens of thousands of other college applicants worldwide. But maybe I'm full of baloney, so I invite further discussion.
[/quote]
I believe that you might be on the right track. Once I read that, I realized that the national recognition is what had made your applicant a star in my mind. </p>
<p>I have to believe that a candidate with those great stats and that level of recognition would be an easy admit at most places. Legacy status, athletic and music recognition, and any other tip factors would be superfluous in that case. Similarly, a candidate with great statistics who is also an athlete and a legacy, but with more average recognitions would still be a great prospect at Famous school. The lack of national recognition (i.e. Intel, Westinghouse, and the like) does bring down his profile a bit but not enough in the latter case. </p>
<p>How much would your candidates chances decrease if we were to take away his legacy status, take away his athletic and music recognitions, and lower his national-level EC to an average local or regional recognition? I dont know enough to offer an opinion, but it is interesting to speculate.</p>
<p>I'm wondering if a national-level (individual not team) EC can do even more: can it trump mid-range scores and GPA for a particular school? The "pointy" applicant seems much in demand.</p>