<p>In our conservatory touring this past year, we heard over and over that "it's all about the audition." The only school that indicated any concern over SAT scores was Cincinnati Con. I have continued to emphasize to my soprano D that she needs to have a great score to send in and that when it comes down to a choice between singers, they may use SATs - but I'm wondering what happens in the real scenario. What has been your experience in this arena? THANKS.</p>
<p>It depends on which one. DD is at Shepherd in Rice and although you do not have to have the SAME SATs as the regular university admissions, you have to be within a range so that they believe you can be successful at Rice. So conservatories more connected to universities seem to pay more attention. Also, those may have more merit scholarship money available for students with high SATs. DD was able to get both academic and music scholarship offers base on her grades and SATs/ACT. I do not believe that the SATs actually played an admission decision of one singer over another at conservatories, though. Which conservatories is she interested in?</p>
<p>I do appreciate this conversation as well. D’s non-musical friends are all doing intensive SAT prep, trying (and sometimes getting) for 2300 plus scores. D does not have time for this. She is a very bright, conscientious student, and has been doing some extra prep on her own, but her schedule simply will not allow for more. I’m trying to calm her anxiety about this–her pSAT points to 1800 to 2000 but we’ll see. She’s not going for IVY’s, but clearly some of the more well-know LAC’s and good U’s with solid music programs will be looking at SATs, but to what extent? We’re not really looking at the conservatories for undergrad. Any experiences with, say, Lawrence, NYU Steinhardt, CMU, UC Boulder, Ithaca, U of R/Eastman, JMU, OCU, others? I’d rather see her put extra time to music practice, sleep, and fun activities. She’s got enough pressure already just to get good grades and keep up with practice, rehearsals, and performances. Your collective wisdom and experiences in this area will be much appreciated.</p>
<p>There are some schools where you can be accepted to the music school only, such as Eastman and Lawrence University (Conservatory). For these schools, you only need to demonstrate a minimum level of academic competency. That’s not to say the minimum level is not high.</p>
<p>There are some schools where you have to be accepted to both the University and the Music School, such as University of Indiana, Bloomington. In these instances, the school of Music can get the Admissions Office to “reconsider” a candidate.</p>
<p>Then there are schools where after you are admitted, you can declare a major in Music. Lawrence University (College) is like that, and I think Northwestern is like that too. These schools tend to have the highest academic standards.</p>
<p>Look on the web pages for the stats for the last reporting period. There should also be some indication of importance of academic admission. If she is comfortably in the mid range she should be fine. Our experience is that grades were more important than test scores in audition schools that still required academic admission. Even so, DD was around the 25th percentile in Rice’s admission profile for her year. She got in on audition, was still acceptable to university, and is doing fine. Not Dean’s list (which is insanely high at Rice) but above the 3.0 to keep her scholarships. That’s what they want to get a sense of in the academic review. BTW - DD did better on the ACT than the SAT. She took each just once and since she was mid range at least for most of her schools she did not repeat. We too felt her music and grades were most important. She did take IB classes, too.</p>
<p>I can speak from the CMU standpoint. My son auditioned there and will be attending this fall. His SAT scores weren’t the best, but he has a high GPA and high class rank along with numerous extra cirricular activities. </p>
<p>At CMU you have to send in a CD before you are invited for a live audtion, then you have that audtion. You then you have to get accepted to the school of music and then getting accepted to the university itself. They told us that the audition play 80% of you getting accepted into the school of music. </p>
<p>GOOD LUCK. Any other question please feel free to PM me.</p>
<p>It seems to me that most of the true conservatories base decisions on audition to the exclusion of all else - within reason of course. Schools of music and music departments (CMU,NYU,Rice,JMU, etc.) tend to look at both, with the emphasis on grades/scores varying quite a bit from school to school. Going for good scores in the music department/music school setting can really pay off in scholarship money, however. With regard to JMU, I know they factor in grades and scores pretty heavily, but the School of Music can definitely use its influence to bring students in who would not get in otherwise. I would imagine Rice, NYU and others do the same thing.</p>
<p>D is VP at NYU Steinhardt. (She just completed her freshman year.) SAT’s and grades definitely count. You need to first pass muster grade-wise and then your audition results are considered. D knows several talented students that did not make it into NYU Steinhardt because of grades.</p>
<p>At Music Schools which are a part of a University or College, scores and grades can definitely make a difference in the amount of merit money that you are offered. Some schools base merit awards on SAT scores as well as audition. Academic merit money is offered at some in addition to music merit. At some State U’s academic merit money can put you up to a full tuition award when combined with Music Merit. Even at Conservatories they may offer a higher merit award if you have good grades and scores. I am convinced that this made a difference at most of the schools to which my S applied.</p>
<p>That being said, there is definitely a different standard to which Performance Majors are held. Some schools where a musician may not have any chance of getting in on academics may be a target school in music performance. Where a student may not qualify for an academic award they may get a huge music talent award. Each school is individual and you have to read between the lines and ask people who are familiar with the individual schools. Admissions offices will not necessarily tell you all of this up front. Some schools do not even require standardized test scores. </p>
<p>An example: a year ago my S was looking at Vanderbilt as a possibility but decided that he wouldn’t have a chance to get in based on his academics even though he is a reasonably good student with good scores. He decided not to apply. The music school would not give us a straight answer regarding these requirements for Performance majors. S was led to believe (and I got the same impression) that most music majors at Vandy take a strong academic course load, that most double major and that academics was the priority. Don’t know if this is true or not, just our experience with this school.</p>
<p>This link (originally provided by BassDad if I recall correctly) shows some recent SAT averages at Oberlin for enrolled freshmen.</p>
<p>It is particularly interesting and relevant to this thread since it compares/contrasts scores at a very competitive liberal arts college vs. a very competitive conservatory. So, it might be of interest even if Oberlin isn’t on your list. The Oberlin Con also says that the audition is 80% of the admissions evaluation…and yet, the scores are not a whole lot lower. I don’t know the numbers, but Oberlin has a large (if not the largest by percentage) number of Con students double-degree’ing. </p>
<p>1900 Con / 2063 College for 2008. </p>
<p><a href=“http://oberlin.edu:80/instres/irhome/www/sche25/[/url]”>http://oberlin.edu:80/instres/irhome/www/sche25/</a></p>
<p>I take the “audition is 80%” with a grain of salt, just like “grades and SATs don’t really matter” or “these theory tests are for placement purposes only” (no matter that students have to take placements tests in the fall wherever they matriculate). Of course the audition is the most important, but I am convinced that excellent musician/students have a much better chance of admission than do excellent musicians/mediocre students, all things being equal. Even if grades and SATs only are a tipping point, it can make a difference. </p>
<p>That said, I don’t think conservatory or music school bound students need to expend huge amounts of time and money on SAT prep. But surely, to perform to ones own personal best, knowing that the lion’s share of time has to be spent on practicing and audition prep. makes sense.</p>
<p>A favorite one for pontification and my soap box is in the shop so I won’t…</p>
<p>Let me just state one fact. Lawrence no longer requires standardized tests, period.</p>
<p>When we visited Ithaca the music school admissions officer gave his speech before the tour and asked for questions. A very nice gentleman who was there with his son a percussionist said pretty much straight out that although his sons grades were not bad (over 3.0 GPA) but, after three attempts his son will never make the schools SAT cut by several hundred points. The woman smiled at the son and said “How well do you play”, he responded “Assume I’m the best” with a slight grin, she looked at him dead on and said "if you are as good as you say it won’t be a problem music is like sports here.</p>
<p>To me if you are a marginal student you should at least be an excellent performer. If you are a marginal porformer no grades will make a difference. I always find it very humbling to know my kids are smarter and far more talented than me :-))</p>
<p>My son is not a great standardized test taker, never was. He did well but not over 2000 for sure. He does have a 3.8 GPA which helps.</p>
<p>As a side note, we later came across the same young man plaing a duet on Marimba with one of the professors, by the sound of it and the smile on the professors face it looked like he got accepted on the spot :-))</p>
<p>I have mentioned this before—when D was an undergrad, one of the schools she applied to mentioned in their admission materials that their students had the highest SAT scores and GPA averages among conservatory admissions in the country. D only had a 3.5 and very mediocre SAT scores. That same school not only offered her a music merit scholarship, but also an academic scholarship. I was informed that the BOTH scholarships were due to a good audition.
I think a school like CCM (that is at the moment producing some fabulously successful voice students ) has one of the most competitive voice programs right now and they can afford to narrow the pool just a bit by requiring a higher SAT score.</p>
<p>just a side bar: D later graduated Summa Cum Laude. (so much for SAT’s)</p>
<p>Agreeing with uskoolfish that grades and scores do matter, at least at some schools. When D was auditioning at CIM, I had a chance to talk to an Asst. Dean of Admissions and she told me that very often, especially with music majors, they hear a lot of equally talented individuals and that it is then that they look at grades and test scores which can be used to “break the ties” ,so to speak, which is exactly what the OP is telling her D. Keep right on telling her- there are so many sopranos that schools have to have some way of sorting them out. By the way, SAT’s can be replaced with ACTs at any school except Curtis, and some conservatories, such as Eastman, only ask for SATs from home-schooled applicants. I would encourage, and did, kids to take both the SAT and the ACT, since they are very different, measure things differently and the scores can be radically different depending upon the learning style of the student,
We know of one girl, this year, who applied to numerous schools, both audition-based and non-audition, including two well known universities where she was a legacy (they were non-aud, with a music major that would be selected after admission); her grades were good, a couple of AP’s with 3-4 but not enough to put her in the top 5 in her class, and her SATs were 1980, overall(after a 10 week class). She was turned down everywhere except for one non-aud program (no legacy there either) and one aud-based music school within one of the universities mentioned who lowers their requirements for those seeking a degree in music. It’s all up to the school and can even change from year to year.</p>
<p>When considering the Oberlin SAT scores, note that the numbers given are averages (I am not sure whether of admitted or enrolled students). I have never found statistics given for the complete range of SAT scores for college vs con, so it is still possible that the low end for the con is proportionately lower than the low end for the college, particularly with the con performing their average over a much smaller number of students. Oberlin does require all con students to take about one elective per semester in the college, and they look for students who will be able to keep up in those classes on top of the highly time-intensive music curriculum. Because almost all of those college courses are free electives chosen by the student, the prospective student would only have to be strong in one or two non-musical subject areas to be able to satisfy that requirement.</p>
<p>Regarding the percentage of students in the double degree program, Bard is the leader there because they require ALL of their undergrad conservatory students to participate in a double degree program. At Oberlin, it tends to be about 20% - 25% of the class at any given time.</p>
<p>My advice: call each of the schools where your child is interested in applying and ask each what their minimal GPA and SAT or ACT score is for entry into the music school. That’s what I did – I contacted each school (nonconservatories) twice to confirm their answers and test for consistency. In almost all cases, I learned that 3.0 was the minimal GPA and that 1100 on the verbal and math tests combined was the minimal SAT score. This was true for music schools at Indiana University, Westminster CC, University of Michigan, University of North Texas-Denton, Michigan State, University of Miami (Florida), and catch this – even Northwestern. It was not true for McGill. McGill wanted a 3.5 GPA, but didn’t require SAT scores except from prospective Music Education majors. When calling the schools and asking about minimal GPA and SAT’s you might also wish to ask about how the individual schools calculate GPA – some schools have their own ways of dealing with AP classes, etc.; others don’t include elective scores in the calculation and don’t give extra numeric weight to AP classes – University of Michigan is an example of this approach. University of Florida has their own unique way of disassembling GPA’s and re-assembling them></p>
<p>All of this is fine, but it doesn’t address the question of scholarships. SingersMom07 is absolutely right – the higher academic scores can really help pull in scholarship money. So finding out how each school awards scholarships is also important. Some public universities offer in-state tuition to students as a form of a scholarship. University of Michigan and University of North Texas provide good examples.</p>
<p>The best thing to do is to actually meet with the Music School Admissions Director and get a good feel for how well your son or daughter is positioned with that school. At first I was hesitant to call and speak candidly with admissions directors. And then I realized that they are in a sales position as well. So it’s in both parties’ interest to share information. The next best thing is to look at the scholarship thread on this Music Major Thread and see how well kids did at different schools.</p>
<p>I agree with Allmusic and others. It is still early in the game for us, but we are being led to believe that the “average” clarinet scenario at universities is 60-80 applicants for 2-5 slots. There will be 2 or 3 National/International stars, a child of a celebrity, probably 20 applicants who have no business being there, and you are left with at least 30-40 applicants who are all good/great and sound pretty much the same give or take a few items, vying for a couple of spots. In a university setting, how else can they decide besides looking at academics?
I agree, Zep, the tide seems to be turning against standardized tests, but for the most part, they are still painfully with us.</p>
<p>Just wanted to mention that no matter how helpful it is for instrumental and vocal performance applicants to have high SAT/ACT scores, the power one has to raise standardized test scores to ideal levels may be limited, regardless of what those test prep companies may claim. On May 20, there were articles in the Wall Street Journal and Washington Post reporting on research showing that the gains from test prep may be much more modest (30 point gain overall was mentioned) on average than many people have been led to believe. These articles are still available online, and there is a thread on this topic in the SAT/ACT section of College Confidential college discussion section. (I am not good with posting links, but these are not difficult to find.) </p>
<p>I hesitated mentioning this because I am sure some parents here have kids who did SAT prep and got phenomenal gains, or even parents who have kids who got near-perfect scores the first time. While some students might benefit from learning some kind of test strategy, or from feeling more confident as a result of preparation, it may not be realistic to expect huge gains, especially if the test prep begins during the summer before senior year. </p>
<p>Regardless of talent, there is still a limit to the control we have over outcomes of these college and scholarship applications, especially with the kind of odds CLRN8MOM reported. I think that raising standardized test scores substantially is probably more difficult than improving things like grades, involvement in extracurricular activities and volunteer work, quality of essays, etc. But then there is the music to think about…</p>
<p>Everyone has their own priorities and resources, but for many in the summer before senior year who are interested in performance major, the time and money for test prep might be better spent on learning audition repertoire, practicing, attending a music festival/workshop, etc. I agree with Sopranomom92 that it also is important for there to be time in the summer for rest, spending time with friends, etc.</p>
<p>Rigaudon: I agree with what you are saying, especially about everybody having their own priorities. I resented the time (and money) our daughter spent taking test prep classes and tutoring. I thought spending all that time and money was absurd because it had nothing to do with academics or where she was going professionally. On the other hand, our daughter was one of those who were able to get their test scores up by 200 points. This resulted in helping her get offers of maximum scholarships at most of the schools where she applied. So, I would have to consider the time and money we spent on test prep a painful investment but one with a big payoff. </p>
<p>As I’ve mentioned in other threads, her junior year with all the test prep, trips to colleges, school shows, etc was extremely stressful, but she lived through it and came out for the better. There were many days, especially when she was physically sick with repeated colds, that I wondered if I had given her the best advice. On the other hand, I would say to her – if you can get through this, you won’t find many more occasions when life is more stressful. (I hope I was right!).</p>
<p>Another thing to watch out for is that like anything else, there are good prep programs and not so good prep programs. And then different kids respond better to different approaches. My daughter took one prep program which raised her score only nominally. Urged on by her favorite music school to raise her math score, I arranged a personal tutor (a friend of the family) for my daughter who met with her about 10 times over the summer and helped to pull her scores up by 200 points, including the math. Some kids just respond better to personal, one-on-one attention. All of this was expensive – costing altogether almost $3,000. But when you are talking about more than $100,000 worth of scholarship money over four years, the $3K seems reasonable. There are those of you who could say that she might have gotten the scholarships without the SAT scores – on talent alone. But looking back, was it a bet I was willing to take especially since talent is such a nebulous, subjective area and the competition is so stringent? The comforting thing about SAT/ACT test scores is that you can see exactly where your child stands, sort of. If the music thing doesn’t work out, then with the higher test scores they are well positioned to pursue other academic programs.</p>
<p>I’d also like to point out that I have a friend whose daughter happened to find it fun to practice for her SAT’s (a very talented pianist and vocalist but one of those who crossed over into academics). She came home everyday after school and “played” with her practice tests. She did this beginning in her freshman year. She ended getting 800’s on each of her SAT tests. So, there’s more than one way to skin a cat. Good luck to everyone beginning this music school venture – it was stressful, but it was probably the most fun year of my life!</p>