How Kids are Finding Out

Parents Forum
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<p>Agreement comes easily to the posts commenting on the harshness of this system on a crowd of vulnerable teenagers who--by and large--have worked hard and achieved much. I hate what it does to the kids--even when the outcome is positive. And I pause to note that when my son's rejection came in December, he was acutely disappointed for 2 days and then bounced right back. I'm the one who continues to be bitter (altho hopefully I've managed to hide it from him)...</p>

<p>But there are comments about money issues that prompt me to throw in an extra couple of cents here...we're among the fortunate families who by dint of hard work and long years of saving are in a position to pay tuition. My son's application (EA) stated he was not applying for financial aid. He also stated he was willing to commit to attending that school should he be offered admission. His stats were right up there with the best (I listed them in yesterday's post; won't bore you again)...he got a form letter flat-out rejection w/mealy-mouthed "fluff" about too many good applicants for not enough spots. OK. That college's loss. But what it tells me is that ability and willingness to pay did not change the outcome. So I don't think money is as big a factor as some folks might suspect...if a selective university rejects a full-paying kid w/stats that simply can't be bettered (how do you do better than straight As in AP and college-credit courses?), then it really is whether they're looking for a left-handed oboe player this year...</p>

<p>I see my own sour grapes in this post. Someone should remind me to "get over it." My son will have excellent choices within a couple of days...he's got one offer of admission already, and a likely letter froma second excellent school...and good chances for acceptance at all 4 of the schools to which he applied...then we'll go thru the stress of the actual selection process. And quite likely, by this time next year, we'll wonder why it seemed to matter so much at the time...</p>

<p>Good luck to all your kids...and to us for "surviving" the beginning of "empty nest" syndrome...maybe if we talk enough among ourselves, among us we'll be able to figure out a way to make the process less difficult for our kids (the first priority) and ourselves!</p>

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<p>Overanxious, I don't think you are sour grapes either. There is a distinct difference between that and just hurting for your child. We all hurt for our children's disappointments particularly when they make no sense. </p>

<p>For schools that are need blind, they are exactly that and the ability to pay does not come into the decision. In fact, for some of those schools, NOT applying for aid, living at a certain address, having expensive ECs, and letting them know you can afford them, is a slight disadvantage as they look at kids in the context of their environment. For your child who has excelled, it would not be such a big deal, but the B student , 1300 SAT kid who has had every advantage is not held in good stead. Whereas with other schools wh are struggling with enrollment, your child would be a true catch. It is only when you deal with the most selective schools that turn down more kids than they take, a true minority among the 2000+ colleges in the US, that things get dicey. Most of the kids in my area, and I live in a decently upscale place these days, applied to State U and they were done. Those who did not get in there, are looking at some less selective local schools and usually an application or two is all that is needed. There are some kids applying to Catholic schools. But it is truly a minority that are looking at schools outside of commuting distance (though some are not commuting) and certainly more than a 3 -4 hour drive away. There are plenty of good schools within the hour here and that is where most of them go. Though we talk about how much things have changed, the truth is that for most of the kids they have not. It is not a big deal to apply to college. There is this new subset, however, who are focused on the more selective schools, and less on the geographics and are pondering the virtues of Colgate vs Emory. There are more of us in this category now than there were 30 years ago, making the selectivity more acute and predictability less certain for outcomes.</p>

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<p>Thanks, Jamimom...yes, I note with interest that my son's choices do not include the schools that have been peppering him w/scholarship (merit) offers and other "bribes"...he did some pretty intensive and focused research in coming up w/his list...and knew even before he sent off his EA application that he was applying to a "crapshoot" school and that it might not work out--and said even then he'd be happy at any of the five schools on his list...so you're right, my disgruntlement is some combination of hurting for my child (interesting in that he's no longer hurting) and my own wounded pride. I may be a bit guilty of "living thru my son" here...that, I suspect, is a defense mechanism against the looming empty nest and the transition it brings to me.</p>

<p>Anyway, it's easy to over-analyze...bottom line is life goes on...after rejection, after acceptance, even after (I suspect) my son actually leaves!</p>

<p>On the issue of money, I think I'm ok w/what we've done...we started the college savings fund when son was 18 months old, and he's known about it, and how much was in it, his whole life. He knows I believe that money is for his education...I put no priority at all on "saving it" should he choose a scholarship offer or the least expensive of his options. He also knows it's enough for an undergrad degree anywhere he wants to go...but may not be enough for graduate schooling if he goes w/a $42,000/year undergraduate school...and he expects to want to earn both master's and PhD ...</p>

<p>He wants to decide without reference to the money issue...but he understands that if he chooses to spend the money at the undergrad level, his choices at the grad/post-grad level may be limited...or they may not. I will certainly pay for all his schooling if I can...as of now, I know I can pay for undergrad; I've got the money saved up...I don't know what economic life will look like four years from now and I may, or may not, be in a position to pay then...he knows that. It'll be interesting to see how/if it affects his choices.</p>

<p>He's a really good kid. He flat-out refused any possibliity of taking the money for college for any other purpose (if he didn't use it all up on college); he says it's my money, not his, and he's just grateful I'm willing to spend it on college tuition/other costs. </p>

<p>I guess you can tell I'm awfully proud of him.</p>

<p>I sometimes wonder if I've made it "too easy" on him...but I'm pretty confident I've made the best choices I can...if they turn out to be wrong, well, so be it. LIfe's a risk. All we can do is think it through as best we can and then accept the risk that it may not turn out as we predict. </p>

<p>In the meantime, the angst and the stress of college app "season" are also part of life's lessons...taking risks is a good thing, and living with a less-than-optimal outcome and still finding joy and pride in a "different" outcome is also a good thing. Methinks my son has done a better job of growing up and gaining maturity than his mother!</p>

<p>I have come to believe that some "not knowing" about outcomes--the aforementioned risk-taking--uncomfortable tho it may be while it's happening, is really good for my son--and quite likely for me, too. I'll let you know once the admissions decisions have arrived, and the decision on where to go is made! In the meantime, thanks for the words of wisdom...</p>

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<p>Robyrm, I've brought up the Match before, and someone gave me a so-so reason why it wouldn't work, ?athletics, maybe - but I wasn't convinced. If the couples match worked, as you said in the 80s, don't tell me we don't have the computing power now to make this work!</p>

<p>Jamimom, AMEN, we also had a happy outcome from ED, and my daughter, in the end, felt that giving up a little bit of potential choice was worth the relief of being finished with the process. I guess that after the happy glow of acceptance dissipated, I began to really question why does it have to be so high pressure that she feels such great relief having it over.
Sure there will always be worry/angst and anticipation leading up to such an important life event - even though I only applied to 1 school many moons ago that took virtually 100% of those who could pay, I remember wondering What if they don't want me?. And some people are going to be disappointed when there aren't enough spots to go around - but does it have to be such a game!?</p>

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<p>Cangel,
Back in the days of punch cards (1977 or thereabouts) my then friend, now H and I wrote a simple program to match 1100 incoming MIT freshman with advisors. We accomodated requests for "string quartets" and " an advisor who doesn't care if I rarely shower"...among other things.</p>

<p>5 years later I sat in a room as 99% of my classmates and I matched to programs throughout the US. This included those of us who had fiancees who were in non-medical fields, couples both wanting dermatology, etc...all went well.</p>

<p>These two data points have me completely convinced a computer match for colleges is doable...I agree with you...but then, it would require such a radical change in thinking I am not sure kids raised to expect choice would ever be able to manage the outcome....</p>

<p>I have one more child, she is 10, and I am absolutely certain that 8 years from now there will be something different, but then her dad expects to see her driving off on the back of a Harley...so we'll see.</p>

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<p>Overanxious, my congratulations again for your discipline in financially planning to give your son a smooth of a path as possible. Not many that way. We were not, and as I read the posts on the forum and see the lives of some of our old friends, I see how foolhardy we were then. I can honestly say that I think things will work out just fine, more than fine for you. And as a mom, you get to be the whipping boy for all of the disappointments your kids go through. It 's like labor pains, I guess, and inevitable, and some are worse than others.</p>

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<p>overanxious,
have a lovely cup of soothing tea and remember that the data will all be in very shortly. That's what I keep telling myself, anyway.</p>

<p>My son is waiting on Bowdoin and Carleton - both of which are doing early writes - and it is stressful for him. Rationally, he knows that he is not a shoe-in at either, and should not expect an early write, but it is hard. On the other hand, he got results early from Brandeis via the Blue Ribbon App - but that was defined upfront. As Jamimom said, "To say you will be notified on such a date and then suddenly some kids get their letters way early is really a slap in the face."</p>

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<p>Jamimom - Good to know I am not the only one who objects to the layered process that has developed.
Overanxious - Sure sounds like your kid is wonderful and will certainly get into a wonderful school and even be a nice kid when that happens.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the nice words about my kid (about whom I'm as biased as any proud parent), Jamimom...and to Ohio Mom, a little soothing--by whatever method (tea isn't my thing) is very good advice!</p>

<p>This morning feels calmer than yesterday which felt calmer than Tuesday (etc on backwards to 3/17)...3/17 is the day mail arrived for my incommunicado/out-of-town son (he's on a trip out of the country)--I am not "authorized" to open his mail (don't blame him a bit; he wants to receive his college news first!)...he's not due back for another 5 days and knowing that unopened letter is sitting down there drove me crazy for a while...CC helped a lot...the posts on 3/17 and 3/18 gave me a pretty good idea that the letter is a likely (way too early to be a rejection) which helped me manage my curiosity...I determined early-on that I'd feel a whole lot worse about betraying my son's right to his own mail than I would having to manage the curiosity, so I have not opened it...</p>

<p>Anyway, this morning feels like "well, 4/1 will be here in 8 days and we'll know everything by then...8 days will fly by (as will the 8 weeks left of high school)...I can wait"...</p>

<p>GIves me new sympathy for the kids who are so anxious about getting the news...anticipation can be a wonderful thing, but it can also be a "killer!"...</p>

<p>Major good luck to all and thanks for all the moral support!</p>

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<p>I agree with arizonamom several posts back. It would be so nice if we knew where to visit over spring break. My son works every weekend, was in a winter sport and missed alot of school for competitive out of town music events. We also have a younger sibling and a dog to house during college visits. It is not only a financial hardship but also a time constraint with visiting many colleges. Now, that we have a few days off, it would be great if we knew where to look! I just find it impossible to believe that when applications had to be complete in December (some were sent even earlier) and the January SAT was the last one that could be used, that colleges need until April 15 to decide. And even then, the poor kids have only two weeks to visit/evaluate/decide. Then there is the issue of decisions being sent at different times, and invitations for select students to special programs. There must be a better way!</p>

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<p>Since many spring breaks are key on Easter, the fact that it is early this year makes the problem of visiting schools you were accepted at even more difficult. Trying to coordinate to a movable feast is just plain complicated.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
he got a form letter flat-out rejection w/mealy-mouthed "fluff" about too many good applicants for not enough spots.

[/quote]

This may not help any, but as a former Ivy interviewer still involved with colleagues at my school and others, I can assure you that this is NOT "mealy-mouthed fluff." Sometimes it just comes down to numbers. Too many really good students chasing too few slots.</p>

<p>If anything, your story can serve as a cautionary tale to others, that grades/scores and even ECs don't tell the whole story when a private school assembles a community. Four children in my family (two of my own, two relatives) and a large number of children's friends got into top ten schools with lower scores and grades than your son (none were recruited athletes, legacies, or URMs). The problem is that scores are merely a RANGE, often considered as much as a 100 points either way - so a student with a (say 1580) is not necessarily going to do better than a student with a 1480. So the number of truly eligible kids considered by scores alone is HUGE.</p>

<p>Second, at the top schools, where you can fill the class two or three or more times over with kids with great SATs and GPAs from great schools, it often DOES come down to what you call "the left-handed oboe player," but not necessarily in a bad way. When I was an interviewer, it had more to do with looking at the whole kid, NOT just filling a slot. I had many kids with long lists of ECs who did not get in, even if they had a passion for their ECs, while other kids got in. I remember my favorite - a student from a land-locked town that found a way to get free sailing lessons, became a certified navigator, got himself onto a free trip sailing for several weeks on a research mission in the southern hemisphere, then got into my school for to major in marine biology. </p>

<p>Often people say, "only the rich can afford sailing/crew/expeditions/ whatever" but what amazed me was the initiative this kid took to do something that ended up costing him nothing but which combined a passsion for the ocean and science in a way I had never seen.</p>

<p>The purpose of my post is twofold: one, to tell you that though your hurt feelings are normal, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar: it was, no doubt, true that your kid is awesome and wonderful, but given the sheer demographics, there were just too many applying. Second, just a bit of defense of adcoms and their "left-handed oboe players" - sometimes outsiders are surprised that some kid with lower scores is accepted, and assume it must simply mean that they needed a fill-in-the-blank for this year's class, but that is a wee bit unfair. Lower scores mean little when a range is considered, and sometimes the student who gets in - like the sailor above - has done truly amazing things with his ECs, given his resources.</p>

<p>Well, as others have no doubt told you, and as you know, next fall you'll be writing CC saying how much your son loves his school and couldn't imagine being any place else! The very best of luck to him and to you.</p>

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<p>Voronwe, that is a great post, and I am making a copy of it for my files. It is so difficult to explain to families why their top stat student was turned down by a college when he has done everything he is supposed to do. There is a post out right now that you might want to see about a student with very good stats who has just been turned down by his safeties. I can feel the hurt in my own chest. </p>

<p>I was flipping through the USN:&WR magazine today, and looked at the US map with the regions colored in to show north, south, west, midwest and was struck at how tiny the north is and how so many selective schools are clustered there. It is a tough go for those who live in that north area to get into those schools. I know I counseled a young man from S's school whose family was shell shocked when he was rejected early from their state school (grades, I am sure). From what I hear, he has a slew of choices right now from some of the southern schools and with merit offers. It does pay to go beyond the usual geographics! </p>

<p>Living the reality of a 25% or less accept rate is very painful. The majority of kids who are not accepted to such schools could have done well there. Just too many kids that were qualified.</p>

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<p>Well, waitlisted at Carleton - only two more to hear from now! Maybe I will pick up sushi on the way home as a consolation prize.</p>

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<p>voronwe, in addition to what you mention the wording of the rejection letter is important. I still remember the rejection letter I got from Bowman Gray medical school way back in '72. It was almost as good as an acceptance letter. I showed it to my friends and relatives,"Look at how this guy writes. You almost feel as if it's a privlege to be rejected by this school. I want to learn to write like this." The letter was sincere and put forth many of the same ideas you have in your post. The other (numerous) rejection letters weren't nearly as easy to read.</p>

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<p>Well here we are, t-minus one week-ish. My son has only heard from two schools so far, but it has taken a lot of pressure off this process. One of them, a reach, came through in a big way. That means the school that has been leaking admits out over the past few weeks ahead of the "regular notification date" has dropped to the bottom. Amen. If this is any indication on how students are treated at the school---with various sub categories being more important than others--who needs that?</p>

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<p>Voronwe (and others): It WAS a "mealy-mouthed" letter full of "fluff" (my son's rejection letter from one of the stratospheric schools--he'd kill me if he knew I was posting, so I'll only say it was the Harvard-Yale-Stanford-Princeton tier. But the adcom who wrote the letter certainly doesn't write as well as the HS applicants to the school (at least those four whose application essays I saw!)</p>

<p>I understand what you say. I do not understand what was "lacking" in my son's app package. His scores and grades and "load" (difficult class count) were absolutely "in range"...his passion about his ECs came through (to me and to others...his guidance counselor told him from the beginning that this school is a reach for everyone but that if essays could get an applicant in, he was in)...of course, I do not know (nor will I ever know) what his guidance counselor said about him in the rec letter, or what the rec letter writers said...maybe that is what the "problem" was...his recommenders may not have thought he was as great as the admitted students' recommenders thought they were?</p>

<p>Do you understand my point here? Not that he did or did not get in. But that there's no useful information about why he didn't get in. It's very hard to get over.</p>

<p>So...as one with adcom experience, I offer you the following observation: my son got over his rejection very quickly. He doesn't view it as a failure; rather, it was a crapshoot and it would have been pure luck (among the qualified pool) had he gotten in; it's no reflection on him that he didn't (he's a whole lot more mature than his mother, don't you think?)...</p>

<p>I don't blame the school (much)...I just wish there were a way we could understand what the admitted students had that the rejected students didn't have...if it's something like "left-handed oboe-playing," I can live with that. If it's something like "we want kids--if we have enough applicants to pull this off--who are theatre-minded, or who do sports, or who are into community service" or something like that, it would be awfully helpful to know. </p>

<p>Right now, I'm just floundering (altho I'm almost to the point where it doesn't matter. My son now has excellent choices--and no additional rejections; RD acceptances do soothe the pain a bit. My son is happy as can be)...so, to adcoms: if there's a way to explain to a top-performing kid who meets every admission requirement (and, while we're at it, to all the rejected applicants) why he/she didn't make your "cut," it would be helpful to know...even if it's "well, your essay was really good, but it just wasn't as good as the admitted applicants." Or "you're a great candidate, but you're a football player and we trend to ballerinas" or whatever. It's the leaving us in limbo with no understanding at all of what happened (or didn't happen) that's so hard to accept...</p>

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<p>I imagine adcoms are reluctant to get very specific about why someone is rejected because they'd have to craft individual letters to everyone rejected (imagine the workload), and by pointing to a specific deficit in an application many students/parents would then try to dispute the finding. The system is bruising but it ends with the letters that are sent out (unless one is waitlisted). You say 'I just wish there was a way we could understand...." I think you need to accept that at some point it is random. There is nothing more to understand. Like you said, your child got over it. It really is so much harder for us parents, but we need to so we can become enthusiastic about the options our kids do have. I think in a week this will not feel so bad to you.</p>

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<p>My understanding is that the adcoms are told very specifically each year what ECs/passions/particular academic interests/research/life experiences, etc., to look for. This doesn't apply in every case, of course, but the left handed oboe player business may not be far off. </p>

<p>Here's an example: a good friend of my oldest d was accepted EA to Harvard in 2001. Interestingly, they had identical SATs (low 1500s) and GPA (about the top 6th percentile at a competitive public school). What this girl had that few other candidates did was national recognition in Irish step dancing. Her mother was later told that this particular EC was one adcoms had been told to seek out among applicants. (The daughter also has amazing people skills and would certainly have aced the personal interview.) </p>

<p>So my daughter's friend was probably accepted because she happened to meet the very specific criteria Harvard was looking for that year. I'm sure the reasons for rejection are seldom as general as "we prefer artists to athletes" or "your essay just wasn't as good as the others." When 90 percent of the applicants are rejected, it means that there are just too many qualified kids with great stats/GPAs/ECs/essays.</p>

<p>It's not about the students; it's about the school.</p>

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<p>Adcoms were told to look for Irish step dancing. huh?</p>