<p>Business? I did not realize Caltech had a B-School. I know it has a solid Economics department, but I am almost certain it has not B-School.</p>
<p>Caltech has both an economics major and a "business, economics, and management" major. Only a few people major in these things (not as a double major in addition to a science/engineering/math major.) There are definitely a lot more math majors.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Dude. Please. I am not sure your sources for information on higher education policy and practices. I am increasingly led to question them. Are you really in touch with the work being done out on issues like this.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Are you?</p>
<p>Look, hoedown, if you don't like my posts, then fair enough, don't read them. But you should allow other people to judge for themselves what's really going on. The fact of the matter is that some public schools like UM have a tremendous amount of money. That's an indisputable fact. Hence, it would seem to me that they ought to be able to provide sufficient help to the poorer students so that they don't feel like they need to delay their graduation via working at part-time jobs. But let the audience here be the judge of that. </p>
<p>
[quote]
What's odd is that when people on CC get engaged with these issues, and they take the time to discuss these theories and findings with each other, to posit some ideas and attempt to sort addressable challenges from factors that are legitimate increases on TTD, you label it "excuse making."
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, what do you want to call it then? UM has had THE fastest growing endowment of all of the schools with the 25 largest endowments. I think it is an entirely legitimate question to ask where that money is going and whether it's being put to best use. If UM tuition is such a problem, then why shouldn't part of that huge endowment be dedicated to reducing that tuition? Is that not a legitimate policy question to ask? </p>
<p>
[quote]
Certainly, the university funds itself through tuition. The costs of a student's extra year in university are primarily going to the university, not to the expenses of the student. It doesn't necessarily cost students thousands of dollars per year for them to just take classes where all they get is a little attention from the professor, who still isn't going to give the student much attention? - yet - this seems precisely to be what most students only do (at least in state universities). So is it the university that benefits from students who stay for extra years? (since after all, the university gets more of the tuition dollars from the taxpayers through that)
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think an even more important question is what is the cost to society. You even alluded yourself to a potential benefit that universities have from students taking longer, as they not only get to charge more tuition, but also get another year of state taxpayer subsidy. Hence, a perverse incentive exists for universities to actually delay students' graduation (or at least, to not exactly push very hard for a timely graduation).</p>
<p>However, public universities are supposed to have a mission to aiding the welfare of the state as a whole. So it is entirely right and proper to ascertain whether university policies are actually helping the public welfare. It doesn't seem to me that sinking more taxpayer dollars for students who can't or won't graduate on time is helpful to the public welfare. Moreover, I suspect that one goal of a public university system is to create more university-educated workers that will boost the economy of the state. Having students hanging around and not graduating on time (or at all) does not seem consonant with the mission of these public universities to foster an educated workforce. This notion aligns with that of bluebayou's, when he states that if more existing students would graduate on time, then that would clear room for the school to bring in more students. Students who don't graduate on time are effectively taking away seats from others who want to go to that school but can't get in.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Look, hoedown, if you don't like my posts, then fair enough, don't read them.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yes, you've shared this advice before, and I'll continue to keep it in mind.</p>
<p>But I'd rather invest a little time in correcting what I think is a misunderstanding or misrepresentation of higher education.</p>
<p>From what I can see, you identify a problem (whether it's high tuition, graduation rates, TTD, some buddy of yours getting a bad grade in a class, or something else) and then you resolutely state that the blame for the situation lays fully on the college or colleges involved, AND that the colleges are doing virtually nothing to address the situation. </p>
<p>It doesn't seem to matter what anyone tells you is being done, or what factors may contribute to the problem, or what scholars and policymakers are currently exploring, or what interesting points the other thread participants are discussing. You come back to how you have identified a problem, how you think it should not exist, and how you blame colleges for not addressing it immediately, fully, and to your personal specifications. </p>
<p>Don't get me wrong, the issues you bring up are really interesting and important. But they are also issues that people on campus and off are already engaged in. However, it's not clear to me you read that material (or believe it, i.e. your comment about whether I was "correct" about the existence of MPact, the Carolina Covenant, etc). So it feels like a waste of time to repeat it over and over. </p>
<p>It's there for you to read when you're interested, however.</p>
<p>Blah Blah Blah. Go Blue. You are doing a great job with the resources and multiple missions at hand. Everyone who does not approve may go elsewhere.</p>
<p>Geez, barrons. </p>
<p>That wasn't my point. </p>
<p>I think these thing are worth discussing, but I find sakky less interested in discussion and more interesting in just griping in an uninformed manner. I know the kinds of stuff that cross my desk, so his allegations that no one in higher ed gives a cr*p fall a little flat. You're in as good a position as I am to know how far he may be off the mark. Color me nonplussed.</p>
<p>Sorry, that was meant for the prior poster, Sakky. Football saturday brings out a little too much aggression. Especially after our game with MSU.</p>
<p>Sorry, I misread what you wrote. Thanks for the clarification. </p>
<p>As it happened, things weren't very happy in Wolverineland for the first half (or more) yesterday either, as you can likely imagine.</p>
<p>universities where 25% or more students take longer than 4 years to graduate</p>
<p>from IPEDS</p>
<p>note: "Columbia College" is not Columbia University</p>
<p>school, grad rate after 4 years, grad rate after 6 years, difference</p>
<p>California Polytechnic State University-San Luis Obispo 20 67 47
Drexel University 13 60 47
Columbia College 0 47 47
Brigham Young University 31 78 47
Wilmington College 2 45 43
Georgia Institute of Technology-Main Campus 34 77 43
University of Missouri-Rolla 21 63 42
San Diego State University 17 58 41
University of Hawaii at Manoa 11 51 40
Texas A & M University 37 77 40
University of Wisconsin-Eau Claire 19 59 40
Concordia University 13 52 39
University of Nebraska at Lincoln 23 62 39
Rochester Institute of Technology 22 61 39
California State Polytechnic University-Pomona 10 48 38
University of California-Davis 43 81 38
University of Puerto Rico-Mayaguez 7 45 38
California State University-Chico 17 54 37
Stevens Institute of Technology 36 73 37
University of Wisconsin-Stevens Point 22 59 37
California State University-Long Beach 12 48 36
Central Michigan University 21 57 36
University of Nebraska at Kearney 16 52 36
University of Wisconsin-La Crosse 26 62 36
University of Puerto Rico-Rio Piedras Campus 13 49 36
California State University-Fullerton 14 49 35
Iowa State University 31 66 35
Kansas State University 24 59 35
Michigan Technological University 26 61 35
New Jersey Institute of Technology 19 54 35
William Paterson University of New Jersey 16 51 35
Western Washington University 29 64 35
University of Wisconsin-Platteville 13 48 35
California State University-Fresno 12 46 34
San Jose State University 7 41 34
University of Idaho 20 54 34
Washburn University 20 54 34
University of Michigan-Dearborn 16 50 34
Western Michigan University 20 54 34
University of Nevada-Reno 15 49 34
University of Wisconsin-Madison 44 78 34
California State University-Sacramento 9 42 33
University of California-San Diego 53 86 33
University of Northern Iowa 34 67 33
Louisiana State University and Agricultural & Mechanical College 24 57 33
North Carolina State University at Raleigh 37 70 33
North Dakota State University-Main Campus 18 51 33
University of Cincinnati-Main Campus 19 52 33
University of Oklahoma Norman Campus 24 57 33
University of Wisconsin-Stout 15 48 33
Purdue University-Main Campus 37 70 33
Widener University-Delaware Campus 67 100 33
California State University-San Bernardino 12 44 32
Humboldt State University 12 44 32
Sullivan University 4 36 32
Towson University 32 64 32
Grand Valley State University 19 51 32
Montclair State University 27 59 32
New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology 22 54 32
Ohio State University-Main Campus 39 71 32
Oklahoma State University-Main Campus 27 59 32
Texas State University-San Marcos 21 53 32
University of Wisconsin-Oshkosh 15 47 32
California State University-Northridge 9 40 31
University of California-Santa Barbara 47 78 31
San Francisco State University 11 42 31
Trinity Washington University 21 52 31
Oakland University 13 44 31
Mississippi State University 27 58 31
Montana State University-Bozeman 19 50 31
Rutgers University-Newark 26 57 31
University of North Dakota 22 53 31
Oregon State University 29 60 31
Clemson University 44 75 31
Tennessee Technological University 18 49 31
The University of Texas at Austin 46 77 31
Texas Tech University 25 56 31
Silver Lake College 27 58 31
University of Wisconsin-Whitewater 21 52 31
Auburn University Main Campus 33 63 30
California State University-Stanislaus 20 50 30
University of California-Los Angeles 59 89 30
Albany State University 12 42 30
Georgia Southern University 13 43 30
University of Georgia 45 75 30
University of Illinois at Chicago 21 51 30
Northern Kentucky University 10 40 30
Michigan State University 44 74 30
Northern Michigan University 17 47 30
University of Nebraska at Omaha 10 40 30
Plymouth State University 27 57 30
University of New Mexico-Main Campus 12 42 30
CUNY Bernard M Baruch College 27 57 30
CUNY College of Staten Island 21 51 30
CUNY Queens College 23 53 30
Yeshiva University 36 66 30
East Stroudsburg University of Pennsylvania 22 52 30
Temple University 29 59 30
Rhode Island College 15 45 30
South Dakota State University 24 54 30
University of Houston 12 42 30
Marshall University 17 47 30
University of Wisconsin-River Falls 24 54 30
University of Wyoming 26 56 30
California State University-San Marcos 8 38 30
Colorado Technical University of Sioux Falls 13 43 30
University of Alabama in Huntsville 15 44 29
Sonoma State University 22 51 29
Colorado State University 35 64 29
Central Connecticut State University 11 40 29
University of Kentucky 30 59 29
Minnesota State University-Mankato 19 48 29
University of Minnesota-Twin Cities 32 61 29
University of Missouri-Columbia 40 69 29
Truman State University 38 67 29
SUNY College at Buffalo 15 44 29
Pennsylvania State University-Penn State Main Campus 56 85 29
The University of Tennessee 31 60 29
Walla Walla College 18 47 29
West Virginia University 26 55 29
Arizona State University at the Tempe Campus 28 56 28
University of California-Berkeley 61 89 28
University of California-Irvine 51 79 28
University of Colorado at Boulder 38 66 28
Colorado School of Mines 40 68 28
University of Central Florida 30 58 28
Florida International University 20 48 28
Eastern Illinois University 32 60 28
Illinois Institute of Technology 40 68 28
Ball State University 29 57 28
University of Kansas Main Campus 31 59 28
Southern University and A & M College 0 28 28
Frostburg State University 19 47 28
University of Maryland-Baltimore County 28 56 28
Bridgewater State College 23 51 28
Eastern Michigan University 12 40 28
Saginaw Valley State University 6 34 28
Winona State University 26 54 28
University of Missouri-Kansas City 17 45 28
University of Nevada-Las Vegas 11 39 28
Keene State College 26 54 28
Kean University 16 44 28
Appalachian State University 34 62 28
East Carolina University 28 56 28
Robert Morris University 27 55 28
West Chester University of Pennsylvania 31 59 28
The University of Texas at Arlington 14 42 28
University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee 15 43 28
The University of Alabama 36 63 27
California State University-Bakersfield 14 41 27
California State University-Dominguez Hills 6 33 27
California State University-East Bay 16 43 27
University of California-Riverside 37 64 27
University of South Florida 22 49 27
Illinois State University 37 64 27
University of Louisville 14 41 27
Morehead State University 16 43 27
Aquinas College 25 52 27
University of Minnesota-Duluth 24 51 27
Saint Cloud State University 19 46 27
Missouri State University 25 52 27
Rutgers University-Camden 25 52 27
CUNY City College 3 30 27
CUNY Hunter College 11 38 27
SUNY College at New Paltz 32 59 27
University of Toledo-Main Campus 17 44 27
University of North Texas 18 45 27
University of St Thomas 24 51 27
Sam Houston State University 19 46 27
Weber State University 11 38 27
Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University 52 79 27
Eastern Washington University 21 48 27
Washington State University 33 60 27
University of Washington-Seattle Campus 48 75 27
University of Arizona 30 56 26
University of Arkansas Main Campus 30 56 26
Embry Riddle Aeronautical University-Daytona Beach 35 61 26
Georgia State University 15 41 26
Saint Xavier University 32 58 26
University of Saint Francis-Ft Wayne 25 51 26
Eastern Kentucky University 9 35 26
University of Louisiana at Lafayette 14 40 26
Husson College 18 44 26
Salem State College 14 40 26
Andrews University 31 57 26
Minnesota State University-Moorhead 16 42 26
Rutgers University-New Brunswick/Piscataway 47 73 26
CUNY Brooklyn College 18 44 26
Molloy College 33 59 26
New York Institute of Technology-Old Westbury 19 45 26
North Carolina Central University 23 49 26
Bowling Green State University-Main Campus 34 60 26
Kent State University-Kent Campus 21 47 26
California University of Pennsylvania 24 50 26
Clarion University of Pennsylvania 26 52 26
Edinboro University of Pennsylvania 23 49 26
Indiana University of Pennsylvania-Main Campus 23 49 26
Millersville University of Pennsylvania 37 63 26
University of South Dakota 23 49 26
Our Lady of the Lake University-San Antonio 16 42 26
Utah State University 22 48 26
Old Dominion University 23 49 26
Harding University 37 62 25
Eastern Connecticut State University 23 48 25
Gallaudet University 7 32 25
University of Florida 54 79 25
University of North Florida 20 45 25
Northern Illinois University 23 48 25
University of Iowa 40 65 25
University of Maine 34 59 25
University of Maryland-College Park 54 79 25
Fitchburg State College 27 52 25
Framingham State College 25 50 25
Northwest Missouri State University 31 56 25
Wayne State College 27 52 25
Rowan University 42 67 25
New Jersey City University 7 32 25
New Mexico State University-Main Campus 12 37 25
CUNY John Jay College Criminal Justice 17 42 25
D'Youville College 19 44 25
Daemen College 24 49 25
SUNY at Buffalo 36 61 25
Gwynedd Mercy College 49 74 25
Winthrop University 33 58 25
Baylor University 49 74 25
Prairie View A & M University 13 38 25
St Marys University 31 56 25
Tarleton State University 21 46 25
The University of Texas at El Paso 4 29 25
University of Utah 21 46 25
George Mason University 31 56 25
Virginia Commonwealth University 20 45 25
Concordia University-Wisconsin 39 64 25</p>
<p>universities where 12 percent or fewer take longer than 4 years to graduate</p>
<p>school, grad rate after 4 years, grad rate after 6 years, difference</p>
<p>Mary Baldwin College 51 51 0
Mount St Mary's University 67 68 1
Assumption College 69 70 1
Cardinal Stritch University 67 68 1
Emerson College 72 74 2
Point Park University 44 46 2
New College of California 72 75 3
Fairfield University 79 82 3
Boston College 88 91 3
Madonna University 34 37 3
University of Rio Grande 10 13 3
Chestnut Hill College 49 52 3
Providence College 83 86 3
Georgetown University 90 94 4
Hood College 69 73 4
Loyola College in Maryland 77 81 4
College of the Southwest 31 35 4
Metropolitan College of New York 36 40 4
Duke University 90 94 4
Holy Names University 40 45 5
Brandeis University 83 88 5
Tufts University 87 92 5
Franciscan University of Steubenville 65 70 5
College Misericordia 61 66 5
Villanova University 82 87 5
Salve Regina University 54 59 5
Lynchburg College 43 48 5
Wheeling Jesuit University 45 50 5
Quinnipiac University 64 70 6
University of Notre Dame 90 96 6
Pittsburg State University 44 50 6
Saint Josephs College 55 61 6
McDaniel College 66 72 6
American International College 47 53 6
Fordham University 72 78 6
New York University 78 84 6
Concordia University 34 40 6
Eastern University 57 63 6
King's College 62 68 6
University of Scranton 75 81 6
Bryant University 62 68 6
University of Dallas 60 66 6
University of Mary Washington 71 77 6
Alaska Pacific University 20 27 7
California Lutheran University 57 64 7
Santa Clara University 79 86 7
Saint Marys College of California 59 66 7
Sacred Heart University 57 64 7
American University 64 71 7
George Washington University 72 79 7
University of Chicago 82 89 7
Northwestern University 86 93 7
MidAmerica Nazarene University 44 51 7
University of Saint Mary 42 49 7
Union College 22 29 7
Davenport University 12 19 7
Princeton University 89 96 7
Columbia University in the City of New York 86 93 7
Manhattan College 58 65 7
Niagara University 56 63 7
Nyack College 28 35 7
Roberts Wesleyan College 48 55 7
Wagner College 54 61 7
Elon University 65 72 7
George Fox University 59 66 7
Pacific University 52 59 7
University of Pennsylvania 87 94 7
Saint Joseph's University 68 75 7
Belmont University 54 61 7
Vanderbilt University 82 89 7
California Institute of Technology 81 89 8
Pepperdine University 71 79 8
Yale University 88 96 8
Lynn University 26 34 8
Nova Southeastern University 34 42 8
Emory University 79 87 8
Piedmont College 42 50 8
North Central College 51 59 8
Anna Maria College 54 62 8
Emmanuel College 50 58 8
Western New England College 50 58 8
Bethel University 62 70 8
Hamline University 53 61 8
Saint Mary's University of Minnesota 53 61 8
Washington University in St Louis 83 91 8
William Woods University 34 42 8
Dartmouth College 86 94 8
Caldwell College 44 52 8
Cornell University 84 92 8
Ithaca College 69 77 8
Manhattanville College 53 61 8
Marist College 69 77 8
Chatham University 39 47 8
Trinity University 67 75 8
College of St Joseph 23 31 8
College of William and Mary 83 91 8
Azusa Pacific University 47 56 9
Mills College 59 68 9
Catholic University of America 59 68 9
Columbia College Chicago 26 35 9
Loyola University Chicago 61 70 9
Butler University 59 68 9
Indiana Wesleyan University 63 72 9
Benedictine College 40 49 9
Louisiana State University-Shreveport 13 22 9
Clark University 63 72 9
Regis College 45 54 9
Suffolk University 38 47 9
Belhaven College 31 40 9
Rivier College 41 50 9
Centenary College 39 48 9
University of Rochester 71 80 9
Wake Forest University 79 88 9
Capital University 55 64 9
Xavier University 67 76 9
DeSales University 59 68 9
Arcadia University 50 59 9
Cabrini College 45 54 9
Waynesburg College 45 54 9
Citadel Military College of South Carolina 62 71 9
Texas Southern University 3 12 9
University of Virginia-Main Campus 83 92 9
Henderson State University 18 28 10
California Baptist University 47 57 10
Concordia University 49 59 10
Mount St Mary's College 56 66 10
University of Bridgeport 33 43 10
University of Hartford 41 51 10
Rollins College 59 69 10
Stetson University 53 63 10
The University of Tampa 44 54 10
Dominican University 57 67 10
University of New England 54 64 10
Johns Hopkins University 82 92 10
College of Notre Dame of Maryland 52 62 10
Rockhurst University 51 61 10
College of Santa Fe 28 38 10
Western New Mexico University 5 15 10
Adelphi University 51 61 10
Iona College 47 57 10
Le Moyne College 58 68 10
Medaille College 21 31 10
Walsh University 39 49 10
Texas A & M International University 20 30 10
Harvard University 87 98 11
University of West Alabama 12 23 11
Spring Hill College 56 67 11
Dominican University of California 42 53 11
Notre Dame de Namur University 39 50 11
University of San Diego 64 75 11
Rockford College 33 44 11
Oakland City University 30 41 11
Loyola University New Orleans 52 63 11
Tulane University of Louisiana 60 71 11
Bentley College 73 84 11
Boston University 70 81 11
Massachusetts Institute of Technology 82 93 11
Wheelock College 52 63 11
Worcester Polytechnic Institute 64 75 11
The College of Saint Scholastica 55 66 11
Saint Peters College 34 45 11
College of Saint Elizabeth 59 70 11
New Mexico Highlands University 9 20 11
Mount Saint Mary College 38 49 11
Nazareth College of Rochester 61 72 11
Syracuse University 71 82 11
John Carroll University 65 76 11
Oklahoma City University 39 50 11
Lehigh University 75 86 11
Brown University 83 94 11
Charleston Southern University 24 35 11
Marymount University 39 50 11
Mountain State University 10 21 11
Alliant International University-San Diego 33 45 12
University of Redlands 54 66 12
Palm Beach Atlantic University-West Palm Beach 35 47 12
Trinity International University 49 61 12
Valparaiso University 64 76 12
Spalding University 17 29 12
Drury University 43 55 12
Saint Louis University-Main Campus 63 75 12
Southwest Baptist University 35 47 12
University of Great Falls 12 24 12
Rider University 45 57 12
Canisius College 51 63 12
Saint John Fisher College 54 66 12
SUNY at Albany 51 63 12
Touro College 45 57 12
Gardner-Webb University 31 43 12
Tiffin University 21 33 12
University of Portland 58 70 12
Freed-Hardeman University 37 49 12
Trevecca Nazarene University 36 48 12</p>