You are instate for Berkeley, so if your D gets in you’d be crazy not to have it on her short list.
But how are you going to tell the difference between Johns Hopkins, Carnegie Mellon and Northwestern? What criteria will put Columbia on the list but take U Chicago off? And if your D is going to be undecided, why is she applying to the UK universities??? She’s going to convince someone that she’s going to 'Read History" if she doesn’t know what she wants to major in?
St. A’s is in Scotland, but you knew that.
BESS at Trinity College Dublin looks neat.
I’m starting to feel for your D. It is tough enough to convince an overseas university that you are sincere about your declared major, let alone having to fake it in order to get into the discipline you really wanted in the first place but didn’t think you’d get in to.
Best of luck to you.
Very difficult to change majors at UK unis. Probably easier to pare down in a joint program (for instance, enter BESS at TCD but then only concentrate on business).
<St. A’s is in Scotland, but you knew that.
BESS at Trinity College Dublin looks neat. >
Thanks! You got me! I remember that it is in England and in some beautiful old city.
Scotland isn’t in England.
“But how are you going to tell the difference between Johns Hopkins, Carnegie Mellon and Northwestern? >
I can’t tell the difference between Johns Hopkins and Northwestern myself, even though I worked (short-time collaboration) for both of them. Weather is different. Cafeteria is much better at Johns Hopkins. That’s all.”
Elite schools desire applicants who pay attention and observe the world around them.
I was a grad student at Stanford and I worked for Harvard. Both are elite. I am still puzzled to pinpoint the difference. The difference between different departments / groups / supervisors was MUCH bigger than the difference between universities. (weather was better in California).
<scotland isn’t="" in="" england.="">
Look I from California. At least, I know that they are relatively close.
@californiaaa I would ask your kid to devote a few hours a day to researching colleges and universities on her list. Pick one per day. Take a look at the distribution requirements and the course catalog. She should read the descriptions. See what courses excite her and why. Campus visits go only so far and few can visit every one on their list. I think they are important but one could get a skewed idea of campus vibe through a lackluster host or incompetent guide. Maybe it’s a blah day and the campus looks depressing - maybe it’s a bright, sunny day and the place sparkles. At the end of the day, for me, the essential part of “fit” is intellectual quality - does something click there? Yes, it’s difficult to assess but worth trying to ascertain.
And this exercise will also help your child with the “Why X university?” essays.
<very difficult="" to="" change="" majors="" at="" uk="" unis.="" probably="" easier="" pare="" down="" in="" a="" joint="" program="" (for="" instance,="" enter="" bess="" tcd="" but="" then="" only="" concentrate="" on="" business).="">
If she would be accepted to an oversee university, she would study economics, definitely. US universities often have very narrow majors - thus, she is not sure, which one is the best.
You could discern or describe absolutely no difference in atmosphere, culture, values, norms, mores? Wow. That’s … Something. There are plenty of posters on here who have gone to those 2, or similar combinations of elite schools, and are quite able to observe and articulate differences. Heck, even from observing parental communications from my kids’ two schools, I can identify differences in tonality and atmosphere. It’s just not that hard.
??? What are you talking about? The elite American privates allow for a tremendous amount of flexibility. Double majors in completely different fields, classes in all sorts of departments. Even designing your own major.
You need to borrow books from your town library and photocopy the pages that relate to all colleges.
(Or buy the books).
Fiske Guide - Colleges that Change Lives - Insider’s Guide to the Colleges - Princeton Review’s Best Colleges - Colleges that Pay you Back.
If your daughter shows as much awareness of “fit” as you do, it’s going to be a terrible, terrible application season.
The most selective colleges want to know you “get” them.
Columbia Dean once said that any application whose “why Columbia” essay stated, in essence “because it’s in NYC and it’s Ivy League”, was the easiest to cut.
At very selective colleges, no, I can assure you, apps aren’t read by Temps. UC’s, perhaps, due to budget cuts, and at many large public universitie that admit on a formula, certainly, but any LAC in the top 60 (75?) or any private U in the top 50? Nope.
Since your daughter is a strong student, make sure you include some good colleges that will provide her with something better than UC Merced. Would the top 3 regional colleges work as safeties with an environment that’s more comfortable than UCs and may be of similar cost? Would you look at LACs ranked 30-60? (Are you looking at LACs)?
In the UK, you can’t “change majors”. You “read” a subject - you apply for one subject and if you wish to change, you have to reapply and start back in Year 1. Each subject has specific requirements - typically, 5 AP’s including some that relate to your future course of studies. You can apply to one of Oxford or Cambridge, plus 4 other programs (including 4 similar programs at one university, or programs at 4 different universities).
Your daughter could apply to BESS (Business) at Trinity Dublin, Sciences Po Reims (in France and, I believe on the CommonApp), both of which cover business as well as general social sciences.
There are new apps: Cappex and Coalition.
Econ in the US is more narrow than in the UK? What is your source for that?
The percentage of your D’s time at a four year college that she will spend exclusively studying econ is much smaller than the amount of time she will spend exclusively studying econ in a UK university.
That’s a meaningful difference for a kid who is “undecided” and therefore not 100% committed to all econ/all the time.
Is she on board with your plan? And does she know enough about econ to know that she wants to study it???
OP needs to approach this in an organized way. And we shouldn’t have to spend so much time shooting down the false assumptions she layers one on another. It’s not going to be productive.
To be fair, everyone engaging in this conversation is doing this of their own volition. I’m still in it because I’ve found the thread entertaining so far . . .
Korea isn’t in Manchuria either.
Another important matter: in the UK, econ is heavily math-based. It’s half math, half economics (I’d probably say 4 hours of math, 5-6 hours of economics a week, with more at LSE, about that at Warwick, etc - look at year-by-year program. Be aware that classes in the UK meet for a total of 8-10 hours a week, the rest of the time is devoted to personal study. The norm is 6 “modules” per year, 3 per semester, although some universities have a 4th, complementary on, usually a foreign language.)
Essentially, a UK student will have taken 12 economics classes by the time s/he graduates, about 3-6 math classes, and perhaps 1-2 other classes, plus a thesis.
A US sudent will have taken about 15-18 classes in economics, anywhere from 2 to ? math classes, about 12 general education classes, and a thesis if they’re in honors.
I absolutely wouldn’t recommend English/Welsh universities for an undecided student. At Scottish universities, sure, there’s a bit more leeway, but you can’t really “change your mind” much and certainly not after the first year.
BESS and Sciences Po both avoid the pitfall of requiring a major early on: the student takes business, math, economics, history, foreign languages, sociology during the first year, a couple of those only during their second year, and only 2 during their last year(s) at Bess, or study abroad with Sciences Po.
Beside BESS, Trinity also offers PPE (but it’s very very hard to get into) and “Arts”, which is basically “undecided”. You can pick from many many different subjects.
Investigate honors colleges in the US, too: they wouldn’t cost more than British universities, would allow her to be undecided, would carry lots of perks and advantages (more so than British universities), would keep her in the loop for career fairs and alumni networks in the US, and would guarantee she’s surrounded by peers/taught by top researchers.
http://www.examiner.com/article/the-nation-s-top-public-university-honors-programs
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/09/opinion/sunday/frank-bruni-a-prudent-college-path.html?_r=0