How Many Sittings For SATs?

<p><a href="%5Bi%5Dtokenadult%5B/i%5D%20says:">quote</a> Harvard doesn't systematically make more adverse admission decisions for students who submit more than one SAT I score than it makes for students who submit only one,

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<p>That's gutting the question; Harvard doesn't systematically make adverse decisions based on imperfect grades, lack of athletic prowess, or anything else. It's all on a "holistic" case by case basis. The actual question was whether equal single-sitting and superscored multiple-sitting SAT scores are always treated identically, or whether there is a potential for the latter to be treated as worse. As I mentioned here and elsewhere, there is published data as well as admissions workers' direct answers to you in CC confirming that, yes, in some cases the two will be read differently.</p>

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which was the thrust of the OP's question.

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<p>The OP asked: "if applicant A and applicant B are [otherwise identical]... and both got 2350 on their SATs. But if A took it three times and the 2350 is the composite of the highest score from multiple sittings and B got 2350 in one sitting, even though it was the third time that B took it. Who would look better? Would either look better?" </p>

<p>That is a frequently asked but not frequently answered question --- your replies and those of most others to the thread are about different and narrower questions, such as "is it guaranteed that [superscored] applicant B will always look worse and suffer a draconian admissions disadvantage".</p>

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As I mentioned here and elsewhere, there is published data as well as admissions workers' direct answers to you in CC confirming that, yes, in some cases the two will be read differently.

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<p>And where exactly are those data and those direct answers?</p>

<p>See above for the published information from Chuck Hughes, former (?) Harvard admissions officer. You are welcome to do the legwork yourself and look up his book, which is in many public libraries and bookstores or available by interlibrary loan. His book is not the only source, but it is enough to refute your current speculations. </p>

<p>As for direct answers from admissions officers, see, for example, the Caltech thread in which one admissions reader answered you directly on this point. While stating the well-known point (that Caltech is not SAT-obsessed, it is OK to send multiple scores, etc) he also indicated that sufficiently aberrant SAT scores can be viewed in ways that take all scores into account and not just the highest, and can in some cases work against the applicant. This was not necessarily his main point, but he did clearly state it nonetheless.</p>

<p>^^completely agree with this guy</p>

<p>There is a claim here that FORMER Harvard admission officer (he is now a private admission consultant) Chuck Hughes claims that it might be disadvantageous to take the SAT I more than three times. That squares with my recollection of what he wrote in his book, which I have read, but that also may not be current information. Or the effect size may be very small, and confined to the case of taking the test more than five times. Whatever Hughes thought when he was an admission officer, this thread includes recent examples of five-time SAT-takers who were admitted to Harvard. Anyway, there is no documentation anywhere in this thread for a claim that ANY admission officer has that view of taking the SAT I twice (or three times) as contrasted with taking it once. Taking the SAT I twice or three times is quite routine in the application pool to the most selective colleges in the United States. </p>

<p>There is another author of a kiss-and-tell college admission book, also one I have read, who appears to have the same opinion Hughes expressed. She has not worked in a college admission office for more than a decade, and has never worked in Harvard's. She also makes the rather bizarre suggestion that applicants should write their applications on paper (NEVER electronically) and only in her specified color of ink. I rather doubt that Harvard admission officers care about that at all. My understanding from press reports about how her clients fared in a recent admission season is that none were admitted to Harvard. Readers of this thread who would like to look at some interesting books about college admission may find a bibliography</a> of college admission books a helpful guide. </p>

<p>
[quote=Ben Golub, a student member of the Caltech admission committee]
The official policy is that the best score is the one that counts most. </p>

<p>. . . . Usually I just glanced at all of them and took the best ones as authoritative.

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<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showpost.php?p=3543930&postcount=3%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showpost.php?p=3543930&postcount=3&lt;/a> </p>

<p>
[quote=Matt McGann, MIT '00, Associate Director MIT Admissions Office]
People make a big deal about test scores. No one seems to believe me when I tell them that when I'm reading an application, I just glance at the test scores to get a sense of them before moving on to the more important parts of the application -- that is, who you are.

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<p>That was from a thread </p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=295954%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=295954&lt;/a> </p>

<p>in which I asked about submitting more than one SAT I score in an undergraduate application. </p>

<p>I would respectfully suggest that if a student is puzzled</a> about the SAT I he just took, and he finds out his scores may have some room for improvement, he shouldn't be afraid to take the SAT I once more, or twice more. Harvard admission officers understand that high school students grow in their scholastic aptitude as they progress through high school, and they will take the highest submitted score (section by section) as the student's score. (This was reported in this thread by current students at Harvard.) It is to be expected that institutional incentives would work this way, because colleges report the SAT scores of their admitted classes as part of federal IPEDS and private enterprise Common Data Set reports. As long as a college is consistent in how it treats all applicants and admitted students, it might as well use internal methodologies that state higher rather than lower scores for each applicant and each admitted student. Beyond test scores as such, many other aspects of the application process (notably review of the students' high school transcripts) are far more important for making admission decisions than the number of times an applicant has taken the SAT I. </p>

<p>It seems to me irresponsible to suggest that the TYPICAL case of a college applicant taking the SAT I once more, or twice more, after a first sitting in which the scores still have room for improvement, is harmful at all to the applicant. Prepare well every time, yes, and get a good night's sleep before the test, definitely, but don't worry about taking the test more than once if YOU think it is a good idea. Harvard admission officers have spoken at public meetings I have attended in my town on more than one occasion to assure students, "Anyone can have a bad day," and that the Harvard admission officer procedure is to consider an applicant's best scores section by section. The actual practice reported in this thread backs up those public statements by current Harvard admission officers.</p>

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There is a claim here that FORMER Harvard admission officer (he is now a private admission consultant) Chuck Hughes claims that it might be disadvantageous to take the SAT I more than three times.

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<p>It is a fact, not a claim, that Chuck Hughes in his 2003 book advises to never take the SAT-I more than 3 times, and warns elsewhere in the book that taking the exam as many as six times can be viewed as a sign of "extreme perfectionism".</p>

<p>This theme is echoed in EVERY SINGLE admissions book written by ex-Ivy League admissions officers that I could find in the local bookstore, including ones who worked at Dartmouth, Princeton, Harvard and Yale. You call such notions of possible adverse effect "ill-informed", but have not posted information to the contrary, and NOT EVEN ONE university has ever stated that, irrespective of the pattern of scores or other information in the application, it will always just treat any submission of SAT's identically to the "superscore" of same. </p>

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Whatever Hughes thought when he was an admission officer, this thread includes recent examples of five-time SAT-takers who were admitted to Harvard.

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<p>You really should explain what these examples are supposed to support.
They are totally consistent with <em>any</em> effect of submitting 4-5 SAT's, ranging from positive (higher superscore) to extremely negative (Harvard randomly tossing half of such applications in the trash unread). In either case there would be hundreds of people who submitted many SATs and got in, and could post to CC about it. Really, think a little bit before presenting these anecdotes as trumping 5 years of actual admissions experience by Hughes.</p>

<p>Your posting is quite long, so expect additional answers to come later.</p>

<p>I've been debating whether or not to cancel my scores from Saturday (today's the last day to send in cancellations). While I am certain that my writing and CR went up considerably, I made several dumb mistakes on the math section which will drop me to around 700. The last time I took it, I got a 770 in math. I'm worried about the inconsistency. I'm actually an alright math student but with a tendency to make stupid mistakes. From reading this forum, it appears that they take your best score section by section and not by overall sitting. Not that I don't believe (I sincerely hope that is the policy!) but is it explicitly stated anywhere? What about other top coleges (Princeton, Yale, MIT, etc.), do they do things the same way? If they actually take the top score for each section, I am definitely keeping my score. Should I risk it?</p>

<p>I got into Harvard early this year my score was not perfect and I took the SAT five times for a composite score a little above 2250. I am Chinese (who a reputation of 2400's) and I still got in, even though a lot of my scores on individual sections were below 700 at times. I don't think they care how many times you take it or if you re using multiple tests to get your scores.</p>

<p>Menuetto: I applied to many of those schools this year, and yes most of them do superscore. Every single Ivy does, along with Stanford and Duke, Rice, NYU. If you have doubts though, just call admissions and they will be happy to verify. Definitely do not cancel your scores though! I took it 4 (maybe 5, I can't remember) times, as I previously posted, and I don't regret it.</p>

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I took the SAT five times for a composite score a little above 2250. I am Chinese (who a reputation of 2400's) and I still got in, even though a lot of my scores on individual sections were below 700 at times.

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<p>Let's put it this way. Suppose that every single Harvard applicant with 5 or more SAT scores from the last few years posted their admissions results. Assume for purposes of this question that hundreds of such people got in but that their admission rate was only 4 percent as compared to the 9-10 percent in the overall applicant pool. Would you still claim that Harvard "doesn't care how many times you take it"? </p>

<p>The point is clear enough: applicant testimony is almost completely uninformative about these questions. Admissions officer testimony and simple logic applied to known data are more informative.</p>

<p>If in your case the total scores at each sitting were around 1600 but the superscore was 2260, it is quite implausible that the admissions office would mechanically ignore the discrepancy with no questions asked, because the magnitude of the difference would make the superscore a misrepresentation of what the score report indicates (consistently weak performance with erratic peaks). The admissions office may be out to improve its US News ranking and view applicants in the best light, but it is not out to shoot itself in the foot, dismantle the SAT, or provide infinite room for weak applicants to game the system.</p>

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I got into Harvard early this year my score was not perfect and I took the SAT five times for a composite score a little above 2250.

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<p>Congratulations. Thanks for sharing your experiences.</p>

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Congratulations. Thanks for sharing your experiences.

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<p>It's interesting that you give each multi-SAT anecdote (from anonymous posters) the status of Delphic revelations, while treating with extreme skepticism the published material from a Harvard admissions officer:</p>

<p>"a claim ... that FORMER Harvard admission officer ... claims that it might be disadvantageous to take the SAT I more than three times. ... that also may not be current information. Or the effect size may be very small, and confined to the case of taking the test more than five times. Whatever Hughes thought when he was an admission officer,"</p>

<p>That's eight attempts to discredit, in 3-4 sentences. Wow!</p>

<p>I'll renew the question of what, exactly, the many-SAT admission anecdotes are supposed to count as evidence of.</p>

<p>Has anyone ever found a statement by any admission officer anywhere that it is disadvantageous to take the SAT I more than exactly one time?</p>

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<p>This is selection season in most admission offices around the United States, so all the offices are busy. I did have occasion about two weeks ago to telephone a liberal arts college in my state to ask about the availability of college tours in June, and I received a polite and helpful response on the telephone. I suppose anyone who really wants to know SOON what a particular college's policy is can telephone and ask. </p>

<p>On my part, I keep a FAQ file of regional information sessions held by various colleges and consortia of colleges. I have attended quite a few meetings of that kind in my city, including two meetings introducing Harvard. Harvard's online schedule of regional meetings </p>

<p><a href="http://www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/utilities/travel_schedule/index.cgi%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/utilities/travel_schedule/index.cgi&lt;/a> </p>

<p>is beginning to show dates and locations for spring 2007 meetings, and I see that the next one in my state is at a convenient place not far from my home. It looks like the month of May will include quite a few of the joint Harvard, Stanford, Penn, Duke, and Georgetown meetings of the Exploring College Options consortium program. At any of those meetings it would be possible for students to ask any question they like about how admission tests are considered as part of evaluating an application to Harvard.</p>

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Has anyone ever found a statement by any admission officer anywhere that it is disadvantageous to take the SAT I more than exactly one time?

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<p>Nice try, but the issue was whether IT CAN EVER BE disadvantageous (not just whether it is generally so), and about numbers of SAT-takings that are generally higher than two. </p>

<p>While figuring out how to answer those pesky questions asked earlier in the thread, you can look at this for an admissions officer opinion on the 2-SAT situation.</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=9370%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=9370&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>She may be right or wrong in this instance, but it is laughable to write it off as "ill-informed".</p>

<p>As another quote from within CC, we have the Caltech admissions person who mentioned, among other remarks on possible problems and non-problems with multiple SAT scores, that:
"Certain extremes will set off alarms -- like 10 repeats or a 400 after an 800"</p>

<p>The latter sounds applicable to a set of 2 scores, particularly if the other scores from the same sitting are high enough (i.e. not attributable to a "bad day", illness, or other such).</p>

<p>I strongly doubt that tokenadult or anyone else has an unambiguous statement from an admissions officer at a top 10-15 school that (even for 2 sittings, much less 3 or more) any collection of SAT-I scores, no matter what the scores are and no matter the other information in the application, will always be treated identically to a record consisting of one SAT-I result equal to the "superscore" of the collection.</p>

<p>From a book by a former Ivy admission officer, published in 1997: </p>

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One final point regarding SAT Is: How many times should a student take them? As I mentioned earlier, scores will generally go up a few points each time the student takes the test, as the student's familiarity with the test increases. . . . All the highly selective colleges and Ivies will take into account only the single-highest verbal score and single-highest math score, whether the student takes the test once or ten times.

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<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=868675#post868675%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=868675#post868675&lt;/a> </p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=52196%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=52196&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>i took it 4 times, but cancelled score twice lol cuz i thought that they might "accidentally" see the bad scores even though they take the highest</p>

<p>I only took it twice. I would have only took it once (my score wasn't perfect, but I thought it represented me well and I didn't think the improvement I could have made would have been worth the time), but the scores came out 3 days after the deadline for signing up for the next exam date, so I just decided to take them again.</p>

<p>Two of my brothers took it 4 times though, and they both got into their number one reach schools, so I don't know how much of an effect it has.</p>

<p><a href="%5Bb%5Dtokenadult%5B/b%5D%20wrote:">quote</a> From a book by a former Ivy admission officer, published in 1997:

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<p>Are you claiming that the passage cited is an example of what was asked for in post #56, i.e. an admissions officer stating unambiguously that any collection of SAT-I scores, no matter what the scores are and no matter the other information in the application, will always be treated identically to a record consisting of one SAT-I result equal to the "superscore" of the collection?</p>