How much debt is too much for a Wall Street Hopeful?

<p>I have made a similar thread in the past, but I have updated (good) info. Plus, here is really the only place I can get financial advice and I’m making my final decision in a few days.</p>

<p>I just finished freshman year at a directional state university. There, I have a scholarship that covers all expenses. I am unhappy at my school for social and academic reasons, but most of all, I will simply NOT be able to break into investment banking straight out of undergrad from this school. I will have to hope for significant career achievements as an engineer and hopefully make my way into an expensive top MBA program to have a stab at investment banking.</p>

<p>However, I was accepted into Cornell’s Applied Econ/Management program. The problem: My family is “rich” on paper but can probably contribute no more than 10k per year (and that may be pushing it). I received no aid from Cornell. However, I recently found family’s EFC will be cut in half when my sibling starts college in 2015 – and my sibling has their heart set on a reasonable state school. All set and done, I will have 100k in debt after graduating from Cornell (this figure considers all living expenses, not just tuition).</p>

<p>You are probably about to write “But you can’t take out this much in loans?” Yeah, I know, not in my name. Unlike most parents, mine are strongly encouraging me to take the risk and go to Cornell and insist on taking out the loans in their name. So it’s a possibility.</p>

<p>I realize this is a lot. I’m working TWO minimum wage jobs this summer (both not fun, at all) and won’t even make a dent in my debt that I may take on (will probably have 94-95k in debt after these two jobs). But from what I read on WallStreetOasis, 100k in debt, if I do manage to break into banking, is worth it. So, it’s easy to agree that if all does work out, then it’s worth the risk.</p>

<p>The hard part is; what if I don’t get the job? I have several back-up options.</p>

<ol>
<li> I can use my degree in Applied Economics in Management to get a degree in a business related field, say accounting.</li>
<li> I’m actually pretty good at math. I could live at home with my parents and study like crazy for a few actuarial exams and try my best to get a job.</li>
<li> Worst comes to worst, I’ll go back to A REASONABLE college and finish my engineering degree – I have only been in college for a year but if I tried I could graduate in two more relatively easily (I’m a junior by credits)</li>
</ol>

<p>My ideal back up plan would be a combination of 1 and 2. Get a business/accounting job in the meantime to pay off loans, and see if there’s room to advance. If not, study all I can for the actuarial exams. With the salary of an actuary, paying of 100k in debt is not impossible, though not easy.</p>

<p>It does seem like I’m basically asking your permission to go to Cornell. Like I said, this is my only source of financial information. I know my parents are only strongly encouraging me to go out of love, but they are not realistic about the debt I may take on, or worst yet, that THEY make take on because of me. I’m looking for some honest advice? Is 100k in debt too much, even for a Wall Street hopeful? I will be making my final decision in the next couple of days.</p>

<p>Are your parents taking out these loans? If so, the debt is theirs. I would be concerned about their willingness and ability to continue these loans until you graduate.</p>

<p>What happens if your sibling has a change of heart and wants to attend a more expensive college?</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>while your FAFSA EFC will be cut in half when your brother attends college, it does not necessarily mean that your overall EFC (Once you file the CSS profile ) will be cut in half by Cornell (as they will take in to consideration how much your family will have to pay at reasonable state school).</p>

<p>Cornell has a page on what kind of jobs applied math grads are getting. They have a variety of options but accounting jobs isn’t one of them. People hire people who studied accounting for accounting jobs so that is a little bizarre. </p>

<p>That is just a horrendous amount of debt to take on. It isn’t rational to think that your parents won’t also have to come up with money to make the payments on it. The amount they can contribute at a 60k+ efc doesn’t make sense. Just think–they have a high income, no college savings and can’t contribute more than 10k a year. Why is that? Also how is your debt only 100k if they are only contributing 10k? It is going to be much higher than that.</p>

<p>@BrownParent‌:</p>

<p>Only 2 years at Cornell, right? He has enough credits to be a junior, he says.</p>

<p>Also, this is the applied econ school, not applied math.</p>

<p>In any case, while I usually don’t advocate taking on crazy amounts of debt (because most of the time, it’s just not worth it), the payoff in Wall Street is high enough and Cornell AEM gives you good enough odds that I think it’s worth the risk. This is essentially the type of wager that many folks who attend top 15 (but not M7) b-schools take, and while it could work out horribly if they graduate during the midst of the 2001-2002 recession or the 2008-2009 financial crisis, most folks do well (and some do VERY well) betting on themselves. </p>

<p>The thing is, Wall Street likes hustle, and if you know you have 100K in loans to pay off, you’re gonna ball harder than most kids.</p>

<p>Another thing is that he’s not exactly going 200K in debt to major in comp lit. In a normal economy, Cornell AEM should set him up pretty well for jobs. Management consulting is a possibility. Management rotational programs as well. 50K/year won’t be much, but it’s enough to service the debt while he hustles for angles on to the Street.</p>

<p>I’m curious: Why are the parents rich only on paper? Is the income stream actually big enough for no fin aid (>200K) or are there other reasons? Any absolute spending requirements for them?</p>

<p>@thumper1 Parents will take out remainder of the loans that I can’t take out.They won’t turn their back on me. We’re talking to a bank about ability this week - they can get them for sure, paying them, well… they tell me they can pay them, at least.</p>

<p>@austinmshauri It’s something to think about but I’ve talked to my sibling about it a lot and I kinda doubt it.</p>

<p>@sybbie719 Thank you for pointing that out. I had emailed fin. aid about exactly how much to expect EFC to be cut by and they hadn’t responded. I did a lot of searching online and assumed half was the going rate, but this could change everything.</p>

<p>@‌PurpleTitan
I appreciate you having a little faith; you’re right, I do like hustle and that’s why I’m thinking if I play my cards right it could all work out.</p>

<p>The only thing is I’m not sure if I could pull of 2 years at Cornell or not, I have enough credits to be a junior at my state school (that is very generous with AP Credit)/ I am sort of a sophomore and 2/3 by credit at Cornell. The 100k in debt figure is based off 3 full years of tuition</p>

<p>(below also applies to @BrownParent) </p>

<p>They haven’t been making 200k my whole life. Most of my life my parents have not been financially comfortable and haven’t been able to save for college like most people making 200k/yr have. They also give a lot (20%) of money to church. I’m not really sure why they can’t contribute too much; maybe the income they report isn’t accurate (kinda doubt it, they have an accountant), but it is what it is now.</p>

<p>Here’s how I got 100k:</p>

<p>Year 1 EFC: 67,000<br>
Year 2 EFC: 33,500
Year 3 EFC: 33,500</p>

<p>Year 1 Debt: 64,000
Year 2 Debt: 64,000-33,500= 30,500
Year 3 Debt: 64,000-33,500= 30,500
MINUS Parent Contribution= -30,000 (over 3 years)
Loans in Cornell Fin Aid Package: 2*7500 (max amount)= +13,000</p>

<p>Debt: 108k. I rounded to 100k because I should make some money from an investment banking internship if i get one. If not, I’m making 5.5k this summer with my 2 min wage jobs.</p>

<p>Keep in mind that it could be less debt than that since I’m not a “sophomore and 2/3” by credit at Cornell. So I think 100k could be accurate, but I have to check out what Sybbie pointed out.</p>

<p>Cornell will want you to contribute with summer/workstudy earnings of at least 6.5K/y for the last 2 years. So add another 13K to your total. Try their finaid calculator with your sibling in college and see what it shows.</p>

<p>Forgot about the calculator.
Year 1: +64,000
Year 2: +38,000
Year 3: +38,000
Parent Contribution: -30000
Loans and Work Study: +20,000
Total Debt: 130k.</p>

<p>Well that’s discouraging. </p>

<p>Keep in mind if your parents have a 67K EFC, they will still have a 67k FAFSA EFC, it will have a 67k EFC, it will just be allocated between 2 kids. So the amount that they will have to pay out of pocket is still going to be the same. </p>

<p>Lets say that you have this 67k EFC, your bother ends up going to a school that only cost 35k, your EFC at Cornell is going to be ~ 42K. </p>

<p>Your math assumes that they do not have summer earnings expectations (usually wrapped into Student contribution) but they do. Look at examples of finaid packages on their web site. NPC shows workstudy/summer earnings for the freshman year but these amounts usually go up the following years. Some Ivies ask how much your parents are paying for the sibling and some do not. Your best bet to call their financial office and to discuss all this in details. Your numbers are still at least 10K off even if they divide your parents’ expected contribution by 2.</p>

<p>Ok…another thing…you say your parents earn in excess of $300,000 a year but can’t help pay college costs. Your college loan payment will add at least $1500 a month to the bills for ten years…just for you. If they pay for your younger sibling…you could easily double that amount.</p>

<p>Your post implies that your parents plan to take these loans. Of course that is their decision to make. Some people prefer to be in debt as opposed to paying upfront. </p>

<p>And as an FYI, it always amazes me that folks wishing to be in IB, finance, or any other Wall Street position involving money, have so little knowledge about incomes, debt, etc.</p>

<p>Cornell is a great school, and their recruiting is very good as well. Without knowing where your directional U is located, it’s very hard to say whether you could go the route you wish to go there…or not.</p>

<p>You need to talk to someone in financial aid at Cornell and find out exactly how this will work aid wise for you with two in college. Don’t just try to grab someone on the pnone. Find out who the directors are and make a phone appointment to go over some specific numbers. Schools allocate financial aid just about any way they please, and you need to know how Cornell will do this for you.</p>

<p>The way it “typically” worked at schools like Cornell (which in NO WAY means Cornell actually works this way), is that parental Cornell expected contribution is multiplied by 60% if there are two kids in college. It USED to be that it didn’t matter what the cost of the that other’s kid’s college was, as long as it was a qualified 4 year school. Community college and vocational schools were not so treated, and sometimes not even given consideration. A number of schools are changing this way of doing things and want to know what the actual costs are at another school. That’s why you have to talk to someone currently in the know at COrnell Fin aid. Your Cornell Student expected contribution remains the same, and as others mention, there is usually a figure these schools have that they expect the student to get on his own. </p>

<p>Also as a transfer student, would you be able to defer your entry until 2015 when you have this benefit, or are you planning on doing the first year with you and parents taking out more than $50K in loans? If you can delay a year, work to save some money–make sure you give the money to a parents in a designated joint account with the parents’ name and SSN first so that it is not counted as Student Assets which get NO protection allowance and are hit at least 20% when parents get a protection allowance and are hit as little as 5.6% on assets. The first $6K or so of your income earned will not be assessed towards EFC and anything in excess of that gets hit at 50%, I believe. </p>

<p>Cornell does package loans in financial aid, and even has its own loan fund. So you might be laden with more loans than at like schools especially since your parents income is up there. You should play around with Cornell’s NPC and change numbers around to get a feel of how it works with two students in college. You should know that calculator cold by the time you talk to the fin aid director.</p>

<p>So with a Cornell expected parental contribution of $70K on their calculatiors, with two in college, parents would be expected to come up with $42K. On top of that is the student expected contribution which is about $4K (my guess only. So with a COA of $62K, you are talking about $16K in aid from Cornell if you are going to college with a sibling also in school. Cornell most likely will package loans and work study in there so that your own borrowing capacity could be zilch. That means your parents still have to come up with $42K somehow. If they can muster up $10K that’s still $32K they have to cough up. Remember they will likely be having to pay something towards your brother’s costs too. Can they even borrow that much a year? $30K a year? Remember, that’s in ADDITION to what Cornell will have you borrowing? A lot of high income parents who can’t come up with much college money have some financial issues that may preclude them from borrowing ANY amounts of money. If they are more than 90 late on bills, for example, have foreclosures, liens, bankruptcy on their credit reports, they can’t get PLUS loans which are probably the best they can do on an unsecured basis, but the interest rate is no bargain at 7% which starts cranking right away, goes on their credit report and is non dischargeable except for death and other limited reasons. This is Uncle Sam we are talking about here and they are tight about discharging this baby. </p>

<p>Without more info on your parents’ financial situation, it’s difficult to say. I’ve known families who make the money but don’t have any saved for a number of good reasons (but such families are RARE, it’s usually not good reasons) who will take out PLUS for their kid and just start repaying it immediately understanding that they are stretching each year’s college payment out for 10 years meaning 14 years of payment with 7 years of that time with 4X the amount of that first year’s payment amount. We did this with open eyes and after much thought and pondering the numbers. It was still very, very rough when we were paying all 4 years amounts. We were rare birds in doing it this way, by the way. Most people just schloff off the payments, let the interest accumulate with no thought of repayment until absolutely demanded after the kid is out of school which by then could mean a doubling of that first year’s borrowed amount. The effect of interest compounding is frightening–a first finance type lesson for you. Do the numbers.</p>

<p>So a lot depends upon your family’s actual financial situation and how good they are at managing it Agreeing with a kid about everything and pushing all though of repayments to the future is not a good thing though it may make you feel good right now. Most of the time people who have not been able to save, cannot come up with payments now, are even less likely to pay in the future. I wish PLUS and other such loans did REQUIRE immediate repayment as they offer as their main option because it then makes the borrower painfully aware of what they are getting them selves into each step of the way. We just paid off my oldest’s such loans, and it was a miserable painful trek. But better than taking the 25 year sentence.</p>

<p>You might find it tough enough to pay off your own loans to Cornell. it’s really tough going even working on Wall Street. My sons have a lot of such friends with student loans, and some whose parents NEED them to pay of the parental loans taken too, and it’s a grim situation even among the economically more successful ones. Yes, if you are a Zuckerberg, piece of cake. But take a good hard look at what “hopeful” means. It’s not that easy to make a lot of money on Wall Street even with an Ivy league degree, and other needs start coming to the forefront long after your schooling days are but a distant memory other than the danged bill payments you have to make until you are well middleaged,maybe with your own kids tuitions to think about. Scary thought, isn’t it. It happens. My own kids have hit some rough times, but at least they did not have school loans in the picture. We paid for UG. My one son iis very successful in terms of a well paying job, but if he had a $100K+ loan monkey on his back, it would be a tough go for even him. That’s a house in many places and without the house. It’s big blotch on the credit report for your parents if they took out the loan and for you, and many of the top companies do a credit check on prospective employees (my son’s did) and they don’t want to hire those with huge debt to income ratios, so if you are cosigner on the loans, it is likely to hurt you in getting an apartment even much less a job dealing with finances or buying a place or taking out any further loans. </p>

<p>Your numbers seem to leave out some expenses, You need to factor in tuition/COA increases for each year and the cost of the interest on these loans. You might also want to add the cost of an life insurance policy on both your life and your parents if these are cosigned loans or if your parent expect you to pay their loans.</p>

<p>Another thing to consider is even if you get that IB job that the job is likely to be in a extremely high cost of living area. Your living expenses in general will be higher. You will be expected to dress better and spend more on networking then most recent grads. That high salary will not go as far as you think.</p>

<p>Thank you for your tips. I think Cornell is unlikely at this point. I’m kind of devastated but you know that’s life.
One last hope:</p>

<p>Do you think my parent’s income could be wrong? It’s slightly over 200k.
Take this into consideration.

  1. We live in a nice house in a nice neighborhood- worth upper 300k’s on Zillow.
  2. I have one sibling.
  3. My parents give 15-20% of their income to church.
  4. We go on vacation (to the beach or maybe skiing, not like South of France) for like 3 days once a year.
  5. Their cars are old and paid off.
  6. We have nice phones (iPhones) and 4 TV’s - so we spend a lot on electronics I’d say.
  7. We go out to eat a lot - about once a week.
  8. My parents are paying $0 for my school right now, and $0 for my sibling’s public school education.</p>

<p>I feel way too middle class to be this “rich” ; the most I feel is slightly upper middle class. Keep in mind my parents are very honest on their taxes, but they do have an accountant that might keep them “in line” from being too nice to the IRS.</p>

<p>ask yourself this (and ask your parents)…does it make any sense that parents who cant/wont contribute one dime towards college costs will suddenly be able to make huge monthly loan payments in a couple of years??? </p>

<p>If that makes sense to you, then you have no business going into investment banking.</p>

<p>@mom2collegekids I’m trying really, really hard to keep calm but you’re testing me. I literally JUST stated that Cornell is unlikely and that I was devastated about it and you choose to take a stab at my intelligence? Nawh, I don’t play that. I know you think you can go talk ■■■■ to everyone who’s not a multimillionaire on here (ya I see u all over this board) and not get checked but I’m not about to sit here and take that ■■■■. I know it’s crazy but there are people who don’t have a 250k trust fund that HAVE THE AUDACITY of wanting to go into investment banking, a career much better suited for those in your income bracket.</p>

<p>Chemistry king. There are plenty of people entering IB who do NOT come from multimillionaire families with huge trust funds. </p>

<p>Another poster posted the same exact thing not long ago. I believe I posted this “drop the attitude about only rich folks being able to enter IB. It will not bode you well if you do enter that field.”</p>

<p>Your discussion needs to take place with your parents. On,y THEY can determine if THEY want to take out very large loans for your education. This is their choice.</p>

<p>You misunderstood my post.</p>

<p>My point is that most/none of this makes sense. Affluent parents pushing you to do this, refusing to contribute towards college, but somehow implying that they will pay back these big loans.</p>

<p>If your parents insist on going forward, make sure that the loans are solely in their names (via Plus Loans or other)…and are not co-signed loans. If the loans are co-signed, then I would not trust that they would not expect YOU to pay most/all of the debt back…and your credit would be ruined if you didnt pay.</p>

<p>Unless your parents have some assured new windfall of money/income that is going to happen in 2 years, it just doesnt make sense that they can go from paying NOTHING per month, to suddenly paying $1000+ per month. </p>

<p>it would be one thing if they could contribute $5k-10k per year now, but they cant/wont. so it is unlikely that they can pay $12k+ per year in loans in two years.</p>

<p>Chemistryking, the people with whom you need to have the discussion are your parents. If you do a little research, you can see that your parents income is up there for households in this country. Running the EFC estimators, (in your case , you have the actual EFC) shows what the federal government has come up with as the contribution your family should be able to afford given their information. But that is based on past present and future incomes. Did your parent save anything at all for your college? Did you? I grew up in a middle income family, really, low-middle and my parents dutifully bought savings bonds each year for us kids. Any money I earned or got as gifts, I was asked to put half away for college. I did the same for my kids though no where as diligently and no where as much, given our family income as compared to my parents. But each of my kids worked summers and saved what ever money they could so that they had a nice little nest egg for when they went off to college. </p>

<p>Trying not to be sanctimonious here, as we still were not able to pay our EFC for our kids. We gave a figure we could pay, our kids had their savings, they could work and borrow to supplement it, which still did not make $60K college affordable. We spent and still spend money on things that we use and enjoy in every day life, rather than have them earmarked for college. Our house payment is high, our real estate taxes are high and our utilities are up there too. Had we bought a smaller, more modest house in a less expensive neighborhood, we could be spending half on that. But we did not. We all enjoy our house, the space, the location, the community. So we pay for it. </p>

<p>But how, where on what your parents are spending their money is their business, though they may share what their budget looks like, what bills they are paying if they are so inclined. </p>

<p>I personally just spent quite a bit of money this week–car broke down, timing belt, had to get it fixed. Son going on a school trip and he’s grown 3 inches from last year, and doesn’t fit his brothers things so he needed work boots and some other items for the trip, not to mention a payment on it. Needed new track shoes. Renting a tux for a prom. DH’ s knees are causing so much pain that he is driving into NYC and parking in a garage until this can be resolved, so he’s paying Manhattan parking. His monthly nut for transportation if he goes public is over $450 anyways. I spent over $200 today at Target for some things including a few wardrobe pieces for me. Spent $60 at Salvation Army half price day. Filled up tank of car. Am paying for SAT tutoring for the summer for son. Need dishwasher repair, garage door repair and tree taken down. Adds up to quite a bit, and that’s just this week. </p>