how much does low GPA and high test scores hurt GPA if school is tough?

Applying to College
1

<p>hey, I'm really interested in the economics and poli sci at any of these instituttions, but i don't know if I can make it. oh yeah, and for McGill, I have canadian citizenship and an american green card. So, I won't be an international applicant to any canadian or american school. it's pretty sweet</p>

<p>About the school:I don't know if this makes that much of a difference but I go to the SC governor's school for Science and math, which I guess could maybe account for the low GPA. I used to have a 3.96 and was in the top 10 of a pretty competitive school before coming here, but the school here was is rediculously difficult. 7/8 teachers that i have this year have PHD's in their field, and only none has ever taught anywhere other than college and my school. My school was also featured in newsweek's "public elite" list, which are schools (like stuyvesant, bronx, imsa) which are excluded from their normal high school list bc. of high SAT scores. This year out of a class of 60: 9/18 got into Duke, 1/4 into Harvard, 0/2 penn, 1/1 into chicago. 0/0 for McGill</p>

<p>Stats:
Asian male( will it help that i'm chinese and want to go into econ and poli sci instead of oh.... math, biology, or engineering?)
SAT:1470 ( retaking bc. my writing scores aren't good. aiming for 2300 +)
ACT:35 (i will submit this score. only taking the SAT to beef up my lack of a gpa)
GPA: 3.75- 3.85 range(unweighted) most likely around 3.8
School does not rank</p>

<p>Teacher Recs- should be solid. I've probably stayed in my teachers offices more than actual class time, mainly because i've had to bust my tail off this year to keep up.
Counselor Rec- will be very good. He's my student council advisor, and I've built a very strong relationship with him. He's already written a very solid rec for me, so i'm confident that he'll do a great job.</p>

<p>Junior Courseload- killed me( i took 8 classes, when all other juniors except 2 took 7)
Semester 1- AP calculus BC, AP Bio, AP Chem, AP US, english 101, Computer Science 101, Solving Complex Math Equations, life and leisure.
Semester 2- all the same classes, except computer science 101 was replaced with AP psychology </p>

<p>I got like 4 A's and 4 B's, which in this school is really good. I felt that I worked harder than I have ever done so before, even though i was top 10 at my old school. A big problem was that I had a very tough transition to boarding school. First semester i had 6 B's and 2 A's. Second semester, i had only 2 B's. But, because I did so poorly 1st semester, I couldn't recover my yearlong course grades. But, I made very high A's on 3/4 exams where i had a B in the class , which in this school isn't easy.</p>

<p>Senior year courseload-
Semester 1- Ordinary Differential Equations, AP Euro, AP Physics C, Gov/econ, AP English lit, History of the 1950's 60's and 70's, Research, solving complex equations 2.</p>

<p>Semester 2- Statistically analysis of financial analysis using Diff EQ( no specific title yet haha), AP Euro, AP Phys C, Globalization, AP English Lit, AP Environmental Science, Solving complex equations 2, and small business management.</p>

<p>SAT II's: haven't taken yet but should be good.
AP's: took AP chem, AP Bio, AP Calculus BC, AP Psychology, and AP Us history as a junior, and i have taken stats -4</p>

<p>E.C.'s that i will list- </p>

<p>Leadership-Student Council 2 yearss-secretary (we only have 2 spots anyway)
Beta Club President as a junior
Speech team captain as a senior
Math Team treasurer
Will start FBLA next year</p>

<p>Selected for the Riley Institute at Furman University's "Emerging Program Leaders" i'm pretty sure it was pretty competitive. Maybe 20 spots with people applying from SC and the rest of the country. The program prepares you to tackle a yearlong service project aimed at improving the community that you live in. My project will aim to improve music education and musical opportunities, through training and scholarships, specifically for minorities in Darlington County. I'm hoping that maybe this could distinguish me from every other asian male applying. </p>

<p>Music-
South Carolina Music Teachers Association state pre college auditions- 1st place in division 4 (grades 10-12)
Guild of the Greenville Symphony Orchestra Competition- top 10 finalist
Laurence Hamilton Scholarship winner (won in 2003, 2005, 2006)- a regional scholarship worth around $400. won in 2003 as a 12 year old and was the youngest winner in the competitions history.<br>
Limestone College young artist's competitions- 2nd place</p>

<p>Speech and Debate-
District competition- 1st place policy debate. Nationals qualifier(but i did horribly at nats)
State Public Forum Debate Champion</p>

<p>Sports-
Varsity Cross Country - 3 years, (team was 3rd this year at state, hopefully 1 next yr)
Varsity Track- 2 years, all region 2007 in the mile, 2 mile, and 4 x 800 meter relay.</p>

<p>Summer plans-
Six week oncology research internship
1 week furman emerging program leaders</p>

2

<p>anyone ????</p>

3

<p>The general question you ask, how tough does a high school have to be for grades that are less than perfect to still be good enough for a highly selective college, is an interesting question, and I hope people will chime in with their thoughts on that issue. But I have no idea about your specific chances, so I won't comment on those at all. </p>

<p>In general, how good does a school have to be for its grade of B to be as appealing for college admission as some typical school's grade of A?</p>

4

<p>Any top private school has kids who have Bs going to top colleges. Why? Because those kids are being held to a higher standard than kids in public school in, for instance, Mississippi. And are thus more desireable. That said, you still have to be in the upper echelon of your class in order to get in.</p>

<p>I have friends in public schools who brag about gettings A in AP English Language, which students in my school are basically not allowed to take because it's deemed 'stupid' by the english department. But not all of these kids are getting 5s or even 4s on the APs.</p>

<p>I think that kids on CC are so used to 4.3 weighted GPAs that they forget what that means. We don't calculate GPA at my school, so when I did it for recruiting I ended up with a 3.7. If I'd weighted that it would've been a 4.something. But I'm fairly certain I worked harder for that 3.7 than some kids do for their 5.0s. </p>

<p>Is the OPs school competitive enough for a college to lower the bar? Probably not. Does that mean he won't get into McGill? No. He still has a great shot.</p>

5

<p>Although all colleges give lip service to factoring in the degree of difficulty of a high school, their record is uneven. Some colleges really do factor in the degree of difficulty, and others do not. Generally, kids who have higher grades (with APs) from easier high schools have the advantage over kids with weaker grades from harder high schools, particularly if they come from geographic areas from which the college is interested in recruiting. I think your best bet is to check with your guidance counselor and to get statistics on what colleges students with your grades from your high school have gotten into in the last couple of years.</p>

6

<p>Yes... no one cares about your GPA alone, we care about your GPA in the context of the rest of your school. If you're on the lower end of the bell curve, then you may be out of luck. While top schools sometimes give students with 'low' test scores and a great GPA, class rank, course load, etc. a break, they rarely extend compassion (unfortunately) to those with a low GPA and high test scores.</p>

7

<p>I don't think you should stress about it. There's nothing you can do to change your grades. The fact that you switched from an easier public school to a very rigorous school alone shows the adcom that take your education very seriously. Just don't start slacking off next year and you will be fine.</p>

8

<p>Your rank is much more important than your GPA.</p>

<p>A val with a 3.6 is more impressive than a top 25% with a 3.8</p>

9

<p>Your GPA is fine if you are in the top 10% or better.</p>

10

<p>see the thing is, our school doesn't rank. and, being in the top 10% would mean being in the top 6, which is pretty much impossible, as the top 6's GPA's don't legitimately say how well a student has done in my school alone. Many people come from public schools where you got 100's in AP courses just by showing up, while others had to work for their grades.</p>

11

<p>It really depends on how many people are above you. The top schools tend to not take a whole bunch of people from the top high schools even if
they are impressed with you as a candidate. The problem is even at a super-hard school like that, there are people there who can get straight A's. </p>

<p>You will get in somewhere nice, probably. But it may be a school like Rice or Duke rather than an ivy...You always have a chance for something higher (even Harvard) if they see something else in you besides academic prowess, so it can't hurt you to apply to a lot of places. All the schools will know that you will be a great student once you get there. </p>

<p>My feeling is that you should apply to places like Amherst, Williams, and Swarthmore in addition to the schools you were already thinking of. I went to a school like yours, and very few people applied to those places. That way your own classmates won't crowd you out. Maybe people from your school are more aware of these places because they are on the east coast, but maybe not.</p>

12

<p>To the above poster- </p>

<p>there are only 3 people with straight A's out of 64. one of them has a 2400 on the SAT, while two others are those types of kids in pre-cal in their junior year, and they tend to only take the easier classes, and their straight A status has only been verified up to 1st semester. So, there's even a chance that NO ONE made a perfect 4.0 GPA in my class. Does that tell you a little about how hard my school is? The average SAT math score in my BC class was around 780, and there were about 20 kids in the class. My school has a reputation for glade deflation, unlike most public schools.</p>

13

<p>well, I went to a magnet hs with similar stats. Colleges know there are a lot of great candidates from your school, but they cannot take all of them even if they all would have been admitted had they applied from their home school. I've also heard that one of the admissions director at one top school (don't remember which) said that math/science academies are one-sided. There may be a prejudice against them. (I don't agree with this sentiment, btw.) The most selective ivies may take that top academic guy (2400, 4.0 GPA, etc.) and then take a few others that aren't even top 20 academically for other reasons. </p>

<p>The best way to know is to look at the profile of the people admitted in the past few years from your hs.</p>

14

<p>"While top schools sometimes give students with 'low' test scores and a great GPA, class rank, course load, etc. a break, they rarely extend compassion (unfortunately) to those with a low GPA and high test scores."</p>

<p>This is a point that cannot be repeated enough, because way too many students on CC do not understand this, expecting that acing an SAT I will encourage admissions committees at HYP to overlook a GPA which does not quite match. I have a great deal of understanding about the really rigorous prep schools, & how challenging it can be to get a 4.0 UW there. (Both my D's have attended one.) It is easier to get into non-HYP Ivies & other highly ranked schools with an enriched high school experience & performance, if less than a 4.0, than into HYP. It is simply a matter of available high-GPA students, that's all. There will be some that have indeed mastered the rigorous curriculum at a demanding school, AND maintained a 4.0. For an overrepresented group (ethnically), that is the bar that generally must be met.</p>

<p>At HYP, it is rare that a non-hooked student can get in with a 92 or below. And hooked is limited to <em>recruited</em> athletes, big donors, URMS, celebrities. Low SES or underrepresented location cannot overcome GPA, nor can great e.c.'s or essays.</p>

15

<p>Well about the "context" of high school, what if people in Top 10% are taking some classes mostly to improve GPA.</p>

<p>A person (who I called DS in my rant - 4.0 student, studies all the time) is taking either Regular or Honors (I'm not exactly sure) Biology and Physics Sophomore year.</p>

<p>Why? Apparently he feels Pre-IB Biology has given him so much preparation that he'll coast through the regular Biology (Honors is seriously a joke here) class and ends up with an A (same with Physics). Anything above regular is a +1.0 (weightage) for us. It doesn't matter if its IB Math HL or Honors Algebra.</p>

<p>Colleges can't possibly compare EVERYONE's classes and GPA, can they?</p>

16

<p>OKAY - SERIOUSLY!!!!</p>

<p>YES!!! Colleges DO NOT simply just elect the student with the highest GPA!!! THEY DON'T! They elect the student who has taken advantage of all the opportunities available to them which means they've taken the most challenging classes, taken advantage of the extracurricular offerings available to them, or used the school's resources to create an extracurricular option of their own. </p>

<p>But, to be fair, there are some universities that don't use 'holistic' admissions. This means, that as ^ questioned, they do mostly just compare GPA test scores and don't read into everything. </p>

<p>Bottom line: colleges don't just compare GPAs of students at the same school. They look into their class load; extracurricular accomplishments and contributions; and the recs. </p>

<p>So stop worrying - BECAUSE THEY COMPARE ** CLASSES** AND GPAS!!!! JESUS!!! YES, CC STRESSES THIS EVERYWHERE. IT IS TRUE!!!</p>

17

<p>"Colleges can't possibly compare EVERYONE's classes and GPA, can they?" </p>

<p>It's certainly difficult to compare comprehensively without full knowledge. However, the higher-profile privates they will know quite a bit about. They often know quite specifically about the curriculum, student performance over time, what the peer make-up of the class is, etc. (That is, of course, when the school has a history, esp. for top-tier acceptances. ) </p>

<p>And no question that where that information is known, they will be able to contextualize. It's just that it is likely that they may find one each of high-performing (4.0 UW or close to it) students at demanding schools, minimum. In a large-applicant-pool year (such as we've seen recently), it does mean that sometimes only one student will get into H, and Y, and P, and that legacy will not be the tip that can replace the top student (top <em>weighted</em> GPA). (A Sal legacy will not necessarily get in over a Val non-legacy.)</p>

18

<p>I understand that colleges look at other things. But at the sime time, CCers maintain that GPA is the most important thing so...</p>

19

<p>I don't understand what your SAT score is.</p>

<p>Is it 1470 on the 2400 scale or is it 1470 with just M + CR? If you said "high test scores" and meant the first one, then you are really wrong.</p>

20

<p>@epiphany</p>

<p>Legacy can help a lot. The one student who got into MIT form our school was a a female legacy. She gets good grades but she seems like the type of person who has to be fed knowledge (AKA not the innovative MIT type). There are people from our school with outstanding ECs and amazing grades in areas that MIT is interested in (USAPhO, various other physics competitions, robot clubs, etc.), but alas none got in because they are white/asian males with no legacy.</p>