<p>My son is looking at the Ivies (he has the credentials for it, as good a chance as anyone else to get in, is also AA, though I understand that Ivies are always a crapshoot). He is also looking at a handful of schools that have merit money. He already won an award form the U. of Rochester as the outstanding science student in his junior class. It can be used only at Rochester if he goes there. My question is: we have severe income problems due to unemployment but have assets in terms of our home and IRA money (which we keep taking out to survive right now). Will the high value of our home prevent us from getting a full financial aid package, despite the lack of income? Also, we've been turned down for a home equity loan due to lack of income so that is not an option. I know the Ivies have more money to give but their aid is strictly need based. Would we be better off applying to schools that offer merit money? And should we not apply to an Ivy early decision if we need so much financial aid?</p>
<p>I don’t think they take IRA savings into account, so that won’t hurt you. I’m not sure how much your home is worth, but they will ask that for the Profile. I’ve read many places that you shouldn’t apply ED if you need financial aid. I’m not sure it gives you enough of an advantage to risk getting into a sticky situation with FA.</p>
<p>So when they say on the tours that if your income is under $60,000, or some it’s $75,000, then you will receive a full ride, that is not really true because, in truth, income is only one part with assets as another part. Have I got that right? </p>
<p>Isn’t it too much of a gamble, though, to try to get into one of the Ivies only on regular decision? The stats on regular decision acceptance are terrible.</p>
<p>They keep telling us on the tours and info sessions that if you get in, they will make sure you get a package that will enable you to go. Is that just all nonsense?</p>
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<p>Think of this way; Ivies and some of their peers have the best need-based aid package you can find anywhere in the country. As far as Early Decision; if you don’t get enough aid, that is a reason (in fact, it’s technically the ONLY reason) you can request to be freed from your obligation. The only problem is that you can’t have any extant applications while you’re waiting for the decision to come down, so what you have to do is work on the applications to merit aid packages but DON’T submit them until you hear and dispose of the Early Decision school’s response. No one hear can tell you what the likely outcome of your financial aid bid will be; there simply isn’t enough information available to us. Ivies are extremely generous and they do try to make it so that everyone can attend (especially HYP, who actually put their money where their mouth is rather than just packaging a Parent PLUS loan and calling it a day) but it might not work for everyone.</p>
<p>In making this decision, you might also wish to consider that not every Ivy League college offers early decision.</p>
<p>I think it says…under $60k (or $70k) with average assets. I imagine if someone had an income of - say $45k - but had a high amount in (non retirement) savings/investments, then the “free ride” wouldn’t happen.</p>
<p>As for equity…some use a formula for equity protection, such as twice income is protected. That may not be too fair for those with lower incomes.</p>
<p>Some schools do take home equity into account and hopefully you won’t be unemployed for the next 4 years when each year’s aid is calculated (each year could be different based on income for that year.)</p>
<p>Plus…each time you withdraw money from your retirement account, that gets counted as income. </p>
<p>Anyway…since getting accepted to ivies/elites is a crapshoot for anyone, your son should apply to some, but also protect himself by applying to several schools that would give him ASSURED big merit for his stats.</p>
<p>When kids are in situations like yours, sometimes finding match schools can be hard since match schools often don’t give big scholarships and don’t give great aid - so you could still end up with a $20k-30k+ per year gap. </p>
<p>It’s easier to find financial safety schools that will give big merit for stats. Some will have competitive merit (meaning that you aren’t assured of a given amount for your son’s stats), and some schools have assured merit scholarships (meaning that the school states on their website that all students with certain stats will get a stated amount of money.)</p>
<p>There are two different ways that financial aid is calculated. Some schools use only the the FAFSA (which is a government form, asks only for income and does not ask for the value of your home). Other schools also use their own form that may ask for the value of your home. Check out the college website to see if the IVY you have in mind has their own form or not.</p>
<p>thanks for all the great responses. I feel we need to rethink what we’re doing. My son has 4 schools on his list that we could consider safetys and I believe they offer merit money (U. of Rochester being one of them, Stony Brook being another). In fact, Stony Brook has special scholarship monies for Valedictorians (his is presently ranked #1) as well as engineering and minorities in engineering,which would apply to him. It’s beginning to look to me that maybe it is too risky to apply early decision. And is it true that you have to withdraw your other applications if they accept you early decision, even before they show you the financial aid package? I can’t believe that would be true - if the financial aid package is not enough, then you are left high and dry with no other applications out there.</p>
<p>Link to the OP’s other thread:</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/1001940-trying-decide-between-dartmouth-early-decision-yale-early-action.html#post1065627469[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/1001940-trying-decide-between-dartmouth-early-decision-yale-early-action.html#post1065627469</a></p>
<p>The son is a high gpa, high scoring (CR lower but still in range and he is a heavily math/sci kid), AA with a rigorous load. IMO there are going to be many highly selective schools that are going to want him. My advice would be to apply widely (EA & RD) to the most generous need only schools as well as some top schools w/big merit scholarships.</p>
<p>I think you have nailed it. Thank you all so much!</p>
<p>“And is it true that you have to withdraw your other applications if they accept you early decision, even before they show you the financial aid package?”</p>
<p>No, with the ED acceptance you get an estimate based on your submitted estimates, and get something like two weeks to decide if you want to accept the ED FA offer. If your actual income goes up, the aid can go appropriately down (and vice versa!). All this is general, and can be checked with the specific schools; they’ll explain it.</p>
<p>If you accept the ED FA offer, then you must withdraw the other apps.</p>
<p>Dartmouth’s financial estimator is being revised and hence not available now, but you could probably get a similar sense of the impact of the value of the home by using an estimator from anotherschool which uses the profile - try it with different levels of income and asset values to see which is the more influential factor. Princeton has one: <a href=“https://sweb2.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/FinAid/finaid_form.pl[/url]”>https://sweb2.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/FinAid/finaid_form.pl</a></p>
<p>Re: Stony Brook as a safety -
OP, I took a look at some of your previous posts and I saw that your son has a high GPA (97+) and excellent SATs (2360). You may not be aware of it, but Stony Brook has a full ride Presidential Scholarship (room, board, books and fees) for students with very high SATs. They also have an honors college for students with a high GPA.
You should check the deadline for application, though, because I think it was earlier than the normal deadline.</p>
<p>thanks so much. I have been looking at Stony Brook’s honors programs though I had not heard about the Presidential scholarship before. I will look into that as well. I think you have to apply by Dec. 1st rather than the January date to be eligible for the honors and scholarships. We are going to take the tour at Stony Brook next month. My son was at their engineeering camp this past summer and loved it but we haven’t really toured the school yet. This is why I am hesitant to apply to one of the Ivies on my son’s list as early decision. If Stony Brook offered him a full scholarship vs. a good financial aid package from a private school - but not a full scholarship - he would go to Stony Brook. All of your thoughtful ideas have pretty much convinced me to forgo early decision.</p>
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<p>Yes, it is nonsense. We heard this too and it is absolutely not true. From any school there are plenty of families whose financial aid packages are not being generous enough for them to afford to attend.</p>
<p>It’s a good idea for you to forgo early decision. You want to be able to compare financial aid packages because they might vary from each other by a considerable amoung.</p>
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<p>Katy…your are sort of right and sort of wrong. ALL of the Ivies use the FAFSA to determine eligibility for federally funded need based aid. All of the Ivies except Princeton also use the CSS Profile which does include equity in your primary residence as well as many other questions regarding assets. Princeton has its own financial aid form.</p>
<p>To the OP…how much is the equity in your home (value minus your outstanding mortgage balance)? If your equity is VERY high…this could affect your eligibility for need based aid at schools which consider home equity in the equation. </p>
<p>The balance IN your TSA will not be counted as an asset, but the contributions you make in the year used for the FAFSA/Profile are added back in as income. So if your kiddo is applying for college for fall 2011, the tax year you would use is 2010. Any TSA contributions made IN 2010 will be added back into the equation as income for 2010. The BALANCE in your TSA is not used as an asset.</p>
<p>Unless you are absolutely positive your kiddo WILL receive the needed aid, I would not apply ED. The thing is…if finances are a significant consideration, you will want to be able to compare offers and even “discuss” offers with peer schools who might just increase your aid based on what another peer school has offered you. If you apply ED, you don’t have that ability to compare the offers. If the aid ED isn’t enough and you say NO…you could regret it later…when other Ivy offers (possibly) come in and you could have used those offers to leverage an increase at the preferred Ivy. </p>
<p>The Ivy League schools have very generous need based aid for students who are within their income guidelines AND have “typical assets”. Another thread was started recently about this…the OP to that thread had almost a million dollars in assets…that is MUCH higher than “typical”.</p>
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<p>I would be very careful here, in general P is more generous with FA than D. While both schools use the Profile, how they determine need differs, and I wouldn’t be surprised if that includes how home equity is calculated into their formulas.</p>
<p>*They keep telling us on the tours and info sessions that if you get in, they will make sure you get a package that will enable you to go. Is that just all nonsense?</p>
<p>Yes, it is nonsense. We heard this too and it is absolutely not true*</p>
<p>Pea is right. EVERY year we have kids posting in late Dec/early January who were accepted ED to their ivy schools but didn’t get enough FA…so they had to decline. </p>
<p>As always…the school decides what your “need” is and each CSS Profile school can be very different. </p>
<p>Anyone who needs aid and needs to compare offers shouldn’t apply ED.</p>
<p>*I have been looking at Stony Brook’s honors programs though I had not heard about the Presidential scholarship before. I will look into that as well. I think you have to apply by Dec. 1st rather than the January date to be eligible for the honors and scholarships. We are going to take the tour at Stony Brook next month. My son was at their engineering camp this past summer and loved it but we haven’t really toured the school yet. *</p>
<p>Stony’s Presidential scholarship is rather vague and doesn’t look ASSURED. However, if your son has the stats for ivies, then he has the stats for big ASSURED scholarships at other schools…including some that are ranked higher or as well as Stony. </p>
<p>From Stony’s website</p>
<p>Stony’s - Presidential and Provost’s Out-of-State Scholarships</p>
<p>Students who are currently seniors in high school who have achieved a meritorious unweighted high school average are automatically considered for this four-year scholarship. High school academic program, SAT/ACT scores, co-curricular activities, research experiences, or special talents or skills may also be taken into account. Scholarships vary based on academic qualifications.</p>
<p>Does anyone know how much is this Stony scholarship typically for?</p>
<p>thank you all so very, very much. I have learned more in 2 days here than all the meetings with the guidance counselor and info sessions and tours combined! I am convinced to forget early decision, though he might still apply early action to Yale. It is too risky to just depend on the FA from one school, especially once the value of the house is included and without the opportunity of merit based scholarship money. I used the calculator on the college board site and put in a figure for our house ($180,000, which is the estimated market value right now minus the mortgage) that is as low as I could possibly get away with. Our assessed value for taxes is considerably higher but I could definitely argue that in this market, I couldn’t get close to that. Under the federal calculator, the estimated family contribution is 0. Under the institutional methodology (can I assume that is what the CSS profile is?) our contribution at $9,000 a year. For us, that is a huge difference. If, with his outstanding grades, class rank and test scores, he can get a full scholarship at another school, then that is what we have to look for. My job now is to look for more schools that fit him and offer as many different kinds of monies as possible.</p>
<p>Some of the very top schools don’t consider home equity and almost all cap it at a reasonable multiple of income. From all you’ve said it’s likely top schools (HYPSD) will give you enough aid.</p>