Don’t want to get caught up in which ones belong where, but for arguments sake
Tier 1: Williams, Amherst
Tier 2: Wesleyan, Washington & Lee
Tier 3: Trinity, Gettysburg
My D is an athlete and waiting to hear back (didn’t go ED but still strong coach interest from one in each group above). She is bright with good academic/test stats, but her academic success is more a result of hard work than god given smarts. It appears from this site that Williams/Amherst kids are uniformly top level scholars (some athletes) who place a priority on learning for learning’s sake, and enjoy the top level academical rigor. Not sure that’s my kid. That said, she loved the tier 1 schools. My question is would an “above average” academic kid have the deck stacked against them for academic success at Williams/Amherst, and be better off at a Trinity/Gburg where they could probably flourish academically. She will work hard regardless of the school, just not sure that’s enough to succeed at Williams/Amherst, or even Wes/W&L. Thoughts would be appreciated
Can’t really speak to differences in academic rigor among these schools, but will say that grit is more important than innate talent in finding success at college and in life. If your daughter is successfully balancing her sport and doing well in high school to achieve solid stats, that’s a good sign for her future success.
Your “learning for learning’s sake” comment is certainly correct for Williams and Amherst. And the workload is heavy.
But if your daughter likes learning and is a hard worker, she very well may thrive there! I think the kids who struggle more are those who did not establish good work habits and who do not seek out help when something is tough.
I think those are colleges where it is hard to get an A but also where it is hard to flunk out! There is so much support available. And these colleges will not admit a student, even a top athlete, who does not appear capable of handling the coursework. So if she got in, she has their vote of confidence! If your daughter is willing to work hard and ask for help (office hours, etc.) when she needs it, she should do fine wherever she is admitted.
Yes, she may have an easier time at certain schools, so the question is, will she welcome a challenge or be overwhelmed by it and prefer to be near the top of her class? Different kids have different personalities. Maybe she can articulate to you and herself what she wants from her college experience, and maybe also make some visits and ask questions of students to probe whether she would be happy in that environment.
Just be careful not to imply to her that you think she is incapable of the work at W or A. Show your confidence in her ability and judgment. It is just a matter of where she will spend the four years having a great time learning and challenging herself without feeling overloaded to the point where she stops enjoying it. Sometimes, a student can be happier at a college that is slightly less intense. My kid wanted the intensity at Williams and is loving it, but I can see how another person might hate it! No point in having a lousy four years!
All of the colleges you named will be filled with smart, ambitious students who enjoy learning. If she got into all of them, she can choose the best “fit.”
Best of luck to her and may she enjoy the next four years!
I would not let your concerns dissuade her from selecting a Tier 1 school if that is her preference.
She may graduate in the middle of her class at a Tier 1 school but that will not hurt her in the long run (unless for example she wants to go to a top 10 law school).
As an indicator of good matches between students and college, Amherst students graduate within four years at one of the highest rates in the nation: https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/highest-grad-rate.
Should really be “As an indicator of being at one of the most selective colleges in the nation, Amherst students”…
As far as actual difficulty of course work goes, see if the college’s web sites have course syllabi, assignments, and exams from courses in her subjects of interest. Some comparison of rigor may be doable, though some cases may require the assistance of someone knowledgeable in the subject.
@ucbalumnus: I think you’re expressing a sentiment beyond the available information. Clearly, Amherst out-performs other highly selective colleges included in the source. (Yes, I’m aware of socioeconomic factors and other confounding aspects.)
Amherst’s lack of GE requirements may mean that a few students roadblocked by a GE requirement elsewhere would not encounter such difficulty at Amherst.
^I understood @merc81’s point to be that the students who are accepted to Amherst are successful there, as evidenced by high graduation rates, and that, therefore, the OP can feel confident that, if her daughter has been accepted to Amherst, she has very low odds of flunking out.
A student who can get admitted to Amherst (without a big “hook” boost) is unlikely to flunk out of any college for academic reasons.
^ Therefore, since “any college” includes Amherst, the OP’s concern about her daughter succeeding there should be allayed.
I agree with the posters above. All the schools, especially Amherst and Williams, have a very large percentage of student athletes.
If accepted they think she will be successful and they are experts. All of the schools you mention can offer her a great academic opportunity and solid sports experience.
If you don’t mind. Let us know what happens and rooting for her.
I will tell you that my daughter who I would describe as highly intelligent and an excellent student, but with maybe less opportunities than most of the kids she finds herself in classes with, has shared some of her graded papers with us. I am amazed at what an incredible writer she is. She was always a very good writer, but I can see the progress that she has made in a very short time.
We have discussed that one of the greatest challenges faced this first year, is that she never had to write to the level that is required at Amherst and that most of her friends have told her quite the opposite-they had been accustomed to write similar types of papers at the various prep schools they attended. My daughter has risen to the occasion, earning straight A’s in her first semester. (mom brag!)
The resources at schools like Amherst and Williams are top notch. On one occasion she made an appointment at the Writing Center https://www.amherst.edu/academiclife/support/writingcenter to get some feedback on a draft. She also told us of a time when she went to see a professor during office hours and left with such excitement about the paper she was going to write because the conversation ended with the professor giving her a book about the topic.
I have asked her, “Is it really hard?”, and she says it is hard, but the work she is doing is on things that she is interested in and mostly passionate about, so she actually looks forward to doing the hard work. I really think Open Curriculum is such a wonderful benefit.
I always tell my girls, “Shoot for the moon, even if you miss you"ll land among the stars.” If she doesn’t shy away from hard work, let the AO’s decide if it’s she’ll be a part of the incoming class. Best wishes this exciting journey.
If you can get into a school like Trinity or Gettysburg, you can “do the work” at a school like Amherst. The schools aren’t that different academically, especially wrt workload (aka they are all “selective” LACs). You might rank a little lower in your class at Amherst vs. trinity, but it’s not like we’re comparing a top liberal arts college with a school ranked 137th in US News. Your D should go to the school she likes the most. Besides, it’s easier to do well in classes when you’re happy with your environment.
@chicobeans, I think you have to consider what “flourish academically” means to you and your daughter. If it’s important to you both that she maintain straight A’s then, yes, this will be more difficult at the more academically rigorous school (like Williams and Amherst). For kids aiming for law or med school, the GPA might be critical. For most career paths, it is not. If your daughter’s goal is to get a superb education, participate in her sport, make friends who share her interests and graduate in four years while maintaining a solid B+ average, then I don’t see a problem with any of the schools on her list.
As others have said all schools want their students to succeed and ideally to graduate in four years. The admissions committees have a good feel about which applicants are likely to do well at their colleges. They realize that different students contribute different skills, backgrounds and perspectives, but overall admit students who can do the work.
The issue of “god given smarts” is more complicated. Academically rigorous colleges can be a lot more challenging than high school. Many kids feel anxiety at first when confronted with a student body of high achievers. Many experience what is called the “imposter syndrome” in which they feel their acceptance was a mistake!
Liberal arts colleges are aware that emotional stress is common among first years, and they offer a wide range of support systems to help students adjust to academic and social pressure, balance school work with extracurriculars and social life (and sleep) and generally enjoy their time at college.
My son is a Williams grad. Even though he had good grades in high school (though not at the top of his class), very good scores and a high level of intellectual curiosity, he found his first year quite challenging. Overtime, however, he became accustomed to Williams’ expectations and with the support of Williams extremely nurturing professors and collaborative fellow students, he learned to fulfill the course requirements, to ask for help when he needed it and to manage his priorities so that he could pursue extracurriculars and stress-relieving activities. His grades improved as his courses became more focused on his areas of interest and he became more confident in his ability. Looking back, he would choose Williams again in a heartbeat.
Thx all, some really helpful feedback. Think the “do I really belong here” concern could creep in with D when you are dealing with such an elite group of kids - let’s be honest, every kid at these schools is there for a reason. When 7 highly qualified kids are turned down for each acceptance, this is the reality. Important points I’m taking to heart are that being a B student at these schools is perfectly ok, and every class will have a bell curve of academic performance.band being an athlete should certainly help stand out in the recruiting/interview process. And secondly, the last thing these schools want is for someone to flunk out, especially someone making a real and genuine effort to succeed - tapping resources etc. Not every kid is going to have a “true love of learning” and spend nights contemplating concepts and having meaningful intellectual discourse, but that looks like it won’t preclude them from having success at a top school -
This may not answer the question asked, but to me one of the prime differences between these schools are the contacts she will make and the friends she will have for the rest of her life. She’ll get a terrific education at any of these schools, but the people you meet will influence you more than the difficulty of the academics. While there are (clearly) smart kids everywhere, the tip-top schools are filled with kids who are smart AND hardworking AND driven AND insightful AND think they can accomplish anything, whether it be pursuing a career in medicine or law, starting their own business, or whatever. That can-do attitude can be learned and developed simply be being around the right people. To me, that’s what sets apart the top schools from the good schools from the average schools, and is well worth risking being an average student. Good luck to her!
Trinity belongs in Tier 2 and certainly not Tier 3 academically or athletically. It is a NESCAC school. And if you daughter is an athlete, even better. Trinity has done extremely well in NESCAC sports, football is a veritable NESCAC dynasty, hockey just beat Amherst College for the conference title and squash narrowly lost to Harvard as it competes in D1. The academics are top notch. She will find research assistant opportunities. It is widening its focus to become more diverse following the lead of Amherst which should be very proud of its diversity and inclusion.
I don’t accept the premise that there’s a hard break between any of these schools. If the Op is worried about DD washing out of Amherst (whether that’s warranted or not - others have already spoken to it), they should probably be looking at a larger college or university where class participation is not expected and where the grading is based on exams rather than written papers.