How Much Leniency for Research?

Pre-Med & Medical School Pre-Med Topics
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<p>There are certain things that you practically have to do for med schools. This includes clinical experience and research. They aren’t 100% necessary but they are damn close. I personally think every premed should at least ATTEMPT to do research (at least 400 hours worth). If you don’t like it, you don’t like it. But, you should try to have at least one research experience. mmmcdowe is right in that regard. If you don’t have research on your record, you will likely be asked why. That to me suggests that it is something med schools look for. Again, not a firm requirement but close.</p>

<p>That said, it is likely not something that’ll get you into med school. This is because it is very hard to stand out in terms of clinical experience or research experience. If you have 3 publications and 2 conference presentations, yea, you’ll stand out. But, most premeds have 1-2 years of research experience w/ no publications. </p>

<p>What really gets you into med school is the stuff that makes you interesting. Don’t neglect those aspects. Whether it’s being an intramural rugby player or starting your own internet company or going in a clinic in Costa Rica for a year or doing Peace Corps, those are the things that adcoms remember. Those are the things that differentiate you from the many other applicants.</p>

<p>So, to summarize, you SHOULD have research on your application. It is damn near a requirement, not only at top research med schools but at most med schools. However, if you can’t stand out in research, that’s okay. Most premeds and even most med students don’t generate multiple publications or conference abstracts. So, put in your time. If you like it, do more. If you don’t like research, focus on making yourself more interesting.</p>

<p>For most premeds, research is just another checklist item. But, it’s still a checklist item you need to be able to check off. It’s not hard to see why. The people interviewing you are academic MD’s or PhD’s. They might teach a rotation or two or, in the case of PhD’s, literally just 1 or 2 lectures. I’ve had approximately 700 lectures and 500 teachers in my first two years of med school. Each of them only teach 1-2 lectures. So, clearly teaching is not a big component of their lives. It’s research. Research is something they think it’s important and it’s interesting.</p>

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<p>I disagree. I consider myself the exception in a large group of premed friends. I have been involved in clinical research for some time because I was interested and had easy access to it. However, most of my friends have done no research whatsoever. They have very strong academics and outside interests. From those who were admitted to med school in the last couple of years, none of them had any research ( i am counting 11, exactly). They did no apply to Harvard, Hopkins nor U Penn but they got into first tier med schools. I know it is anecdotal, but it has given us all a “flavor” of what admissions are all about. These kids have all been unique in some way - from artsy to being very much involved in the community -, but again no research. No rats, no labs, no awards, no competitions. Just a passion for medical science and people…and very strong academic credentials.</p>

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<p>^ Artsy? Are you very sure about this? This reminds me of an incident: DS asked his mentor/post-doc in his lab to help review his resume (To be sure, this is for applying for a lab position elsewhere, not for applying to medical schools.) His first suggestion is: Remove all of the “artsy” club activities. Nobody in a serious lab would care about your involvement in these activities.</p>

<p>But I did hear in the past that some medical school adcoms like to see an “interesting” applicant who, for example, would play/sing in a restaurant , a night club, or even on the street sometimes. Also, it appears that the athletic capability is highly valued. So who knows!</p>

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<p>Definitely not true in medical admissions. I literally danced my way into a number of schools, but I also had a balanced application with clinical experience, research, and community service. Research was the second most talked about EC I did after dance, and I certainly was not a stand out researcher.</p>

<p>Even in a PhD lab I wouldn’t drop the artsy stuff. A resume just isn’t about what you think the reader will find important, it’s what you find important too. Besides, tons of PhDs have art passions.</p>

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<p>It looks like OP’s had general concern, not Harvard Med. school concern. Since mmmcdowe switched focus to Harvard in post #13, the question seems to be unanswered at this point. Most of pre-meds are not concerned with getting to Harvard. Most pre-med juniors are concerned with getting to any Med. School in the USA. Comment about connection between this goal and Medically related research would be very valuable.</p>

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<p>Research focused med schools were my D’s goal. As such, when she was making her list, she omitted schools with a lower percentage of students engaging in research prior to med school. If the situation were reversed (and she had zero interest in research) she would have been drawing from her discard pile. </p>

<p>The school she ended up choosing has an incredibly high percentage of students engaging in research prior to med school (iirc 90%). </p>

<p>This “data” (such as it is) is out there to evaluate and use or evaluate and ignore. </p>

<p>So , Miami DAP, my answer would be : at some schools it’s a deal-breaker. At others, not so much. Use the data you have to ferret out which schools are which. I’d suggest the percentages engaging in research, the overall primary care focus, the mission statements, NIH funding, … any number of things could give you some clues. ( I do recognize that some otherwise research-heavy schools have specific primary care programs.)</p>

<p>IMHO Harvard’s insistence that “every PI ever” submit a LOR would be a pretty big clue.</p>

<p>At primary care focused schools time may very well be better spent in patient care or hospice or volunteering with the less fortunate. </p>

<p>Of course, the best apps would have all of those and some artsy stuff, too.</p>

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<p>As an example of the range of schools out there…I don’t think you can get up to bat, much less to first base, at Cleveland Clinic or Harvard HST without pretty stout research. Whereas, at some schools the mission statement reads “to train primary care physicians to serve ______”. I think it’s (insert non-insulting synonym for “naive”) to think that apps would be read the same way at both ends of that continuum.</p>

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<p>Many posters here are very capable and talented. However, most students have average stats and EC’s. I do not think average students can sing in a night club. I am wondering which one of the following average premed seniors would stand a better chance:</p>

<p>1) one publication from two years of research and some community services.
2) 4 years of community services w/o research</p>

<p>Both candidates have MCAT of 29 with a GPA of 3.7. </p>

<p>Thanks</p>

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<p>Ace, if I can re-phrase, I’ll give it a shot. </p>

<p>If the community service is “check the box” pedestrian hours of community service in #1, I’d say #2 stands a better chance than #1 at primary care focused schools. At research-focused med schools I believe “no research” is a killer for most applicants. </p>

<p>If OTOH, the community service in #1 is creative, self-directed, or meaningful in some other way and you can write about it in a way that conveys a commitment to others…it’s #1 by a land-slide at any med school.</p>

<p>IOW, IMO years don’t make up for quality of the experience and your ability to express the meaning of that experience…to you.</p>

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<p>Well, most people would have some research and no publication along with some meanningful for them service (some might include extensive training). At least, this is the case with my D. and most people around her. She will not look though at Research vs. Primary care, she wants to go to one close to home (she has other people around her with similar goals). They were told that publication might not happen to good number of pre-meds because of limited time. Most people are not stars in anything, they just do what make sense for them and what is available. If MCAT is low, nothing can help, that is my perception, including name of UG. I know somebody from Duke who had hard time getting accepted. I do not know details except that her GPA was 3.7. I assume, it must has been low MCAT, what else it could be?</p>

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<p>

Many things. A torpedo LOR. Just weak LOR’s. “Check the box” EC’s. Bad app list. Late app. Late secondaries. Weak app. Weak secondaries. Lopsided MCAT. Interviews while wearing a bone in her nose. Academic transgression. </p>

<p>The only thing we know is that one of her GPA’s wasn’t the problem.</p>

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<p>curm, What schools may be on your D’s discard pile (i.e., schools with a relatively lower percentage of students with a good research credential)?</p>

<p>A very good community service could be a hook. 2 or 3 years ago, there was an applicant who was an elected government official of the city department which helps low income families. He even worried that he had very very few hours of clinical/hospital experience right before the application. But he was admitted to both Yale and Harvard medical schools. Actually, Yale medical School said they want “leaders” in the medical field. He did show his leadership quality. He ended up doing something else for a year because he felt more fulfilled doing that line of job (serving the poor) than going into the medical school. (He deferred one year before entering the medical school.) He did have respectable numbers (like 3.92/39). DS also knows somebody who was admitted into a top-5 law school and then decided against going after he deferred for one year - Money is not an issue for him. Some other line of work (with much lower earning potential) is more fulfilling for him.</p>

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<p>Her experience and rationale for the app cycle are probably not very instructive to others. As a Texas resident with “good stats” and good soft factors she was virtually assured a spot at a Texas med school (barring interview or LOR meltdown). Among the Texas allo medical schools, Texas Tech’s two campuses are the most primary care focused. She did not apply to either.</p>

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<p>mcat2,
It looks to me, that person in your example would be admitted to most (if not all) schools that he decided to apply because of 3.92/39. Would be interesting to see example with 3.5/29 non-URM outside of bs/md and average (no publication, no star status) research/volunteering in regard to acceptance. I have a feeling that in case of 3.5/29 and otherwise average everything, acceptance is not in a picture. Am I wrong?</p>

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<p>They would be in trouble. Dead if they were in California. Marginal in Texas (if they had truly blah EC’s). Don’t underestimate the power of IS residency or the competitiveness of some state’s med schools.</p>

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<p>^ Very good suggestion! Thanks!</p>

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<p>MiamiDAP, He did get into many, but also failed to get into many. I looked up his mdapps for its “entertainiing” value in restrospect :slight_smile: If I remembered it correctly, he did do some MPH thing during his deferrred year. (BTW, for the old-timers on this board. his CC screen name was thesmartazz.)</p>

<p>Undergraduate College: Yale University
Undergraduate Area of Study: Biological/Life Sciences</p>

<p>MCAT: BS 13, PS 14, VR 12, R
Overall GPA: 3.93
Science GPA: 3.89</p>

<p>Brief Profile:
Educational / Career Interests:
I have interests in public health (especially concerning underserved communities) and plan to get an MPH. Tentative plans include academic primary care / disparities research.</p>

<p>Major College Activities:
I’ve spent most of my time in college working on issues that I care about, which primarily involve poverty alleviation and race politics.</p>

<p>Hunger / Homelessness:
Secretary, Co-coordinator, & Senior Advisor of campus Hunger and Homelessness Action Project
Volunteer, soup kitchen
Volunteer, Coordinator, drop-in center for the homeless
Voting member, City Homeless Advisory Commission
Summer Fellow, Homeless Health Care Program of a community health center</p>

<p>Race politics:
Board member, campus Asian American Student Alliance
Chair, campus Asian American Studies Task Force</p>

<p>Science research:
4 summers of neuroscience research since high school
3 summer fellowships to pursue research
No publications as of yet </p>

<p>AMCAS submitted: 2006 </p>

<p>Application Complete, Rejected
Johns Hopkins University - “R: Pre-interview (November secondary)”
Combined PhD/MSTP: No Submitted: YesSecondary Completed: YesInterview Invite: NoInterview Attended: NoWaitlisted: NoAccepted: NoRejected: YesSummary of Experience: R: Pre-interview (November secondary)
View Johns Hopkins University >
Application Complete, Withdrew
Case Western Reserve University - “WD: Pre-secondary (After UMich)”
Combined PhD/MSTP: No Submitted: YesSecondary Completed: YesInterview Invite: NoInterview Attended: NoWaitlisted: NoAccepted: NoRejected: NoSummary of Experience: WD: Pre-secondary (After UMich)
View Case Western Reserve University >
Columbia University - “WD: Pre-secondary (Technical blooper)”
Combined PhD/MSTP: No Submitted: YesSecondary Completed: YesInterview Invite: NoInterview Attended: NoWaitlisted: NoAccepted: NoRejected: NoSummary of Experience: WD: Pre-secondary (Technical blooper)
View Columbia University >
Attended Interview, Withdrew
University of California, Los Angeles - “Invited to I: 02/16/2007; WD Pre-I: 02/26/2007 after UCSF acceptance”
Combined PhD/MSTP: No Submitted: YesSecondary Completed: YesInterview Invite: YesInterview Attended: YesWaitlisted: NoAccepted: NoRejected: NoSummary of Experience: Invited to I: 02/16/2007; WD Pre-I: 02/26/2007 after UCSF acceptance
View University of California, Los Angeles >
Attended Interview, Waitlisted, Withdrew
Stanford University - “I: 01/09/2007; WL: 04/06/2007; WD: 04/25/2007”
Combined PhD/MSTP: No Submitted: YesSecondary Completed: YesInterview Invite: YesInterview Attended: YesWaitlisted: YesAccepted: NoRejected: NoSummary of Experience: I: 01/09/2007; WL: 04/06/2007; WD: 04/25/2007
View Stanford University >
University of Pennsylvania - “I: 01/12/2007; WL: 03/26/2007; WD: 04/25/2007”
Combined PhD/MSTP: No Submitted: YesSecondary Completed: YesInterview Invite: YesInterview Attended: YesWaitlisted: YesAccepted: NoRejected: NoSummary of Experience: I: 01/12/2007; WL: 03/26/2007; WD: 04/25/2007
View University of Pennsylvania >
Accepted
University of Michigan - “I: 10/20/2006; A: 11/06/2006, MS; WD: 5/14/2007”
Combined PhD/MSTP: No Submitted: YesSecondary Completed: YesInterview Invite: YesInterview Attended: YesWaitlisted: NoAccepted: YesRejected: NoSummary of Experience: I: 10/20/2006; A: 11/06/2006, MS; WD: 5/14/2007
View University of Michigan >
Harvard University - “I: 11/16/2006; A: 03/22/2007”
Combined PhD/MSTP: No Submitted: YesSecondary Completed: YesInterview Invite: YesInterview Attended: YesWaitlisted: NoAccepted: YesRejected: NoSummary of Experience: I: 11/16/2006; A: 03/22/2007
View Harvard University >
University of California, San Francisco - “I: 01/08/2007; A: 02/24/2007; R: PRIME-US 05/11/2007; WD: 05/14/2007”
Combined PhD/MSTP: No Submitted: YesSecondary Completed: YesInterview Invite: YesInterview Attended: YesWaitlisted: NoAccepted: YesRejected: NoSummary of Experience: I: 01/08/2007; A: 02/24/2007; R: PRIME-US 05/11/2007; WD: 05/14/2007
View University of California, San Francisco >
Cornell University - “I: 11/02/2006; A: 12/22/2006; WD: 05/11/2007”
Combined PhD/MSTP: No Submitted: YesSecondary Completed: YesInterview Invite: YesInterview Attended: YesWaitlisted: NoAccepted: YesRejected: NoSummary of Experience: I: 11/02/2006; A: 12/22/2006; WD: 05/11/2007
View Cornell University >
Yale University - “I: 11/17/2006; A: 03/22/2007; WD: 05/11/2007”
Combined PhD/MSTP: No Submitted: YesSecondary Completed: YesInterview Invite: YesInterview Attended: YesWaitlisted: NoAccepted: YesRejected: NoSummary of Experience: I: 11/17/2006; A: 03/22/2007; WD: 05/11/2007
View Yale University >
Emory University - “I: 11/20/2006; A: 12/20/2006; WD: 04/25/2007”
Combined PhD/MSTP: No Submitted: YesSecondary Completed: YesInterview Invite: YesInterview Attended: YesWaitlisted: NoAccepted: YesRejected: NoSummary of Experience: I: 11/20/2006; A: 12/20/2006; WD: 04/25/2007
View Emory University >
University of Chicago - “I: 12/07/2006; A: 03/16/2007, MS; WD 05/11/2007”
Combined PhD/MSTP: No Submitted: YesSecondary Completed: YesInterview Invite: YesInterview Attended: YesWaitlisted: NoAccepted: YesRejected: NoSummary of Experience: I: 12/07/2006; A: 03/16/2007, MS; WD 05/11/2007
View University of Chicago >
Northwestern University - “I: 12/08/2006; A: 03/05/2007; WD: 04/30/2007.”
Combined PhD/MSTP: No Submitted: YesSecondary Completed: YesInterview Invite: YesInterview Attended: YesWaitlisted: NoAccepted: YesRejected: NoSummary of Experience: I: 12/08/2006; A: 03/05/2007; WD: 04/30/2007.
View Northwestern University >
Mount Sinai School of Medicine - “I: 12/15/2006; A: 01/24/2007; WD: 03/09/2007”
Combined PhD/MSTP: No Submitted: YesSecondary Completed: YesInterview Invite: YesInterview Attended: YesWaitlisted: NoAccepted: YesRejected: NoSummary of Experience: I: 12/15/2006; A: 01/24/2007; WD: 03/09/2007
View Mount Sinai School of Medicine >
Summary of Application Experience
Abbreviations:
A = Accepted
I = Interviewed
R = Rejected
MS = Merit Scholarship
WL = Waitlisted
WD = Withdrew</p>

<p>Timeline:
11/06/2006 - Accepted to Michigan
12/20/2006 - Accepted to Emory
12/22/2006 - Accepted to Cornell
01/12/2007 - Completed all interviews
01/24/2007 - Accepted to Mt. Sinai
02/24/2007 - Accepted to UCSF
02/26/2007 - Withdrew from UCLA pre-interview after UCSF acceptance
03/05/2007 - Accepted to Northwestern
03/09/2007 - Withdrew from Mt. Sinai
03/15/2007 - Accepted to Pritzker
03/22/2007 - Accepted to Yale
03/22/2007 - Accepted to Harvard NP
03/26/2007 - Waitlisted at Penn
03/30/2007 - Offered merit scholarship at Michigan
04/13/2007 - Decided to defer matriculation for 1 year
04/25/2007 - Withdrew from Stanford & UPenn (Deferment)
04/30/2007 - Withdrew from Emory and Northwestern (FinAid)
05/10/2007 - Received deferment approvals from Michigan, Yale, Harvard, & UCSF
05/11/2007 - Withdrew from Pritzker, Cornell, & Yale
05/12/2007 - Deciding between Final 3: UMich, Harvard, & UCSF
05/14/2007 - Withdrew from UCSF & UMich
05/14/2007 - Therefore, I’m headed to HMS!</p>

<p>Thoughts:
I’m glad that this process is over. I was very lucky during the app cycle and got into many of my top choices. To those who have similar interests, just be true to yourself, and you won’t be disappointed! The final 3 schools that I considered - Harvard, UMich, and UCSF - all have good reputations for fighting health and healthcare disparities. Ultimately, I chose to go to HMS based on a gut feeling; let’s hope that my gut doesn’t mislead me!</p>

<p>Advice:
To current applicants, don’t obsess over M1/M2 or small differences in curricula. It’s M3/M4 that truly matter, and any of the ‘elite’ med schools will have comparable training. Go where you feel comfortable and where you think that you’ll be inspired to succeed. If you’re lucky to have multiple acceptances, go with your gut!</p>

<p>I won’t be checking this site or SDN any more for the considerable future. Good luck to applicants!</p>

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<p>^If candidate like this is rejected, the rest have very slim chances of getting anywhere. I am getting more and more assured that bs/md route was the right one for my D. I hope that she has her 27 and good to stay in her program. She mentioned many times that pre-meds around her are desparate to get to any place. D. does not care much which Med. School she will end up going, she wants to be close to home and preferrably non-urban location.</p>

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<p>People, with all due respect, I’m not asking about whether research should be considered a requirement before applying to medical school, or even whether medical schools would be “lenient” about an applicant’s not having research. I fully plan on participating in research in college, anyway, so that’s NOT my question.</p>

<p>I’m simply trying to find out what TYPES of research are generally perceived more favorably at medical schools at all. Would researching the difference in literary tones between Faulkner and Shakespeare be significant to a medical school admissions committee? If the research needs to be in a field of science, would some sort of astronomy research be acceptable? If it needs to have a direct connection with biology, how close does that connection need to be? Would something on the theory of evolution be acceptable? How about biostatistics? Bioarchaeology (anthropology)? Or, more or less, does the research really need to be about some sort of microorganism or macromolecule?</p>

<p>Again, any relevant help would be appreciated.</p>

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<p>Your question was answered in the first reply.</p>